Pete, the whole point of my post is to try and show that you can't just make a blanket statement about whether it's a fair chase hunt or not even though B&C and P&Y don't consider it one if there is any high fence. That is because it's impossible to say what one is and another isn't because it can vary so much based on the animal, size of the acreage, terrain, cover, etc. That's exactly why B&C and P&Y took the size of the property out of the equation and just flat say no high fence. I do agree with their stance for their records. Your statements about where they may be or may not be and using binos is pretty accurate and exactly how we hunt and get on elk. We know the area over many years of hunting it to use that knowledge to our advantage and are successful because of it. If I took anyone else there it would take them a lot of time to get to know the area and have success like we do if they didn't hunt with us. I find your questions hard to answer because I don't understand what area you're even talking about. If I was to just hunt our area for the first time or two I would have a real problem taking an elk. In the area we hunt I only know of two bulls that have been taken by people other than in my party. We've probably taken 10 or 12 in that same time period. That's because the tags are hard to get and NRs that get the tags haven't hunted it and don't even know where to start. That's the point I was trying to make when I said if you fenced the area we hunt we would have no better chance than the way it is right now because most of the animals probably don't leave it for reasons I already mentioned. I have no idea how many animals are in the area we hunt, but it's a lot. However, if you're not in the right place at the right time to see them even with binos a person would have no idea the area is so good. I won't ever hunt a high fenced place, but those who do would probably ask for some tips from someone who knows the area. That would just be common sense and is exactly what's done on every hunting website when you're talking about people going on public land hunts where they've never been before. In conclusion, this discussion isn't stupid and I have taken a stand for as long as I've ever talked about this subject. My stance has always been that if a place has enough acreage and proper habitat such that the animal has the same advantages as it does with no fence, then I would consider it a fair chase hunt even though the animal wouldn't qualify for the book. I go for the pleasure of the experience and not the kill and would never hunt a place that would insure a kill. I also figured that if you made a few posts in this thread you'd get your panties in a wad and your last paragraph was exactly that. You probably should honor your other post and not say anything else because it's very obvious that if a person doesn't agree with you the thread does turn ugly just like that last paragraph you posted.