Aint so, UncleNorby. My grandson shot a nine pointer on the run year before last with a '94 Winchester in 30-30 that I had given to his dad when he was a kid. This was his first, he hit it in the lower sholder, it only went a few feet and plowed into a bush and died. Granted, the deer was only about 50 feet from him when he shot. No upgraded ammo, this was Federal ammo, don't recall if it was the 150 or 170 grain bullet. The old 30-30 will do the job with good shot placement at reasonable range.