with a shotgun, if i can put 5 slugs into a apple sized at 25 yards offhand group im happy but i know my guns do better. with my carbines (30-30, 7.62x39's, 7.35 caracano, 6.8 spc) i like to stay sub 3 moa at 50 yards with open sights, 2 moa or less if its scoped. with rifles i keep it as tight as it will get. this means no factory loads if i have dies, no open sights, bring a tripod and/or bipod to the field, strong magnification optics. basically to the point where i dont even think about a given number for accuracy but instead more focusing on working with the wind, range and eviromentals. it is my strong opinion that with a "rifle" that if a shooter has the skill to make a shot, the rifle HAS to be up to the job. deer rifles (note that im not saying carbines) should never hold a shooter back from making a shot in any manner, whether its the accuracy of the rifle or the caliber or even the repeatability of the zero. placing a shot on a deers vitals should never be a measure of the rifle, its a measure of a hunters marksmanship.