Nodog, thanks for the advice, I got into the easton arrow tuning guide.. Did some field point paper tuning first, used thin news paper.. dont do this, it dosent pattern well. Switched to packing paper, and the tears were more consistant and obovious. I was having a low nocking point issue. I cant move my d loop so... I lowered my rest that was pretty close to the rubber coated shelf.. moved about 1mm... alot better, acceptable paper tune in my eyes. Switched back to broad heads from about 10yrd, shooting alot better, I got some slick tricks from my shop, hope it would fix this .. no... shooting them side by side with muzzy mx-3 the st worked better. some times I would have a mx3 go crazy, they like to follow any thing for any reason it seems. Moved my rest maybe a full 1/16" total downward. And broad heads and FP's shooting pretty tight. I destoryed two of my new ST's as they grouped that well shots one and two hit. Im guessing my tuning for now is over, I will test more at further distances. As of now... 10/20 yrds Im hitting what I aim at with fp (hit quarters at 20 with fp's) Broad heads.. prolly group.. 1-2" apart. Should I tweak further? Im cutting the adjustment lines (1/16") into almost 4 segments. I think I have it dialed down as good as it gets for a fixed blade, but still need to tweak my sights.. and shoot distance.. I walked back tuned with FP in the past.. before this vertical adjusment.. I have no left/right issues.