uncle norby i am seeing deer just not in range. heck i had one night where i saw three does come into a corn field at about 5. the deer have been moving late so i thought, well ill set up on them tomorrow. that night i had two deer come in to the field i was on but i needed them to have been about 15 minutes earlier. so the next day i got in real early to set up on those 3 does. they never came but guess who came early in the other field, thats right those two from the night before, or at least i assume it was them. thanj you for the tip about hunting the thick stuff. i will have to try that on my next weekend. i work night so i miss most of my morning hunts. we do have one bow only land but its an hour and a half away so with my schedule its ruled out