Ongoing First Shot Inconsistency - Ideas??
 

Ok - so I cleaned my MZ (50 cal TC BC Triumph - shooting 100gr by volume of BH 209 with 250gr TEZs with supplied sabots) after last trip to range - brass brush with regular solvent, then wet solvent patches, then dry patches, then a very thin coat of hoppes #9 oil.

So Tuesday night prior to going to range wednesday I ran a dry patch through the barrel numerous time to catch the oil and then ran through some alcohol wipes to get it cleaned and dry. I then fired three primers and ran a dry patch down one way one time only. Next day I went to range and sabot went down perfect not too easy and not too hard. Pulled trigger and dead on. For those that have been following my plight/learning curve to get ready for this weekend - you can imagine how happy I was.

So I decided to confirm my result by going to range the next day. I have a real hard time leaving the barrel fouled on this gun - if it was a stainless barrel I wouldnt mind. So I decided to clean the gun and follow somewhat the same procedure:

So here is what I did to prepare (note the differences):
1. didnt use a brush this time due to only having shot once - so I just used solvent soaked patches ran through till clean.

2. Then dry patches

3. Then alcohol patches

4. Then shot three primers

5. the ran a dry patch one time only and one way to even out powder residue.

6. Cleaned breech plu thoroughly.

So I go to range today - load up same load. I notice sabbot goes down a bit easier today than yesterday but not much - enough to get my attention though. I am on a rest (no trigger jerk and scope is non-issue), pull trigger and its a flyer. 7" high and 4" to left. I was not a happy camper cause I thought i had it figured out. No way i was leaving on that note so I put in two more loads and both shots back on the money. I know I didnt jerk the trigger on the first shot and the only other thing i can think of is that i may not have had it firmly enough up to my shoulder. I just doubt it though.

So now I am going to go back to range with the dirty gun and shoot it cause I am hunting Satyrday with it and have to have some confidence on what this things going to do. The reason I was cleaning after everytrip was that I am scared to leave the gun dirty due to rust etc. But I am about to the point now where I will leave it dirty if that means some confidence and accuracy. That flyer really would have not been good on a deer.

What are ya'lls thoughts???

I really dont think its a primer situation (remington STS)

Would going to 110grains from 100gr help minimize the first shot variance?

I just wish I had more time to get this figured out.

What you are experiencing is not all that uncommon. I have rifles that shoot different on a clean barrel and then again on a fouled barrel. What I do is decide what I want to do. Since I shoot a lot, I sight them in on a fouled barrel. Before I hunt, I just shoot a squib load. Dump 30 grains of powder down the barrel, push a cotton patch on top of that and fire it off. Now the barrel is fouled and should shoot like it normally does.

Others hunt on a clean barrel and sight in for a clean barrel. Although they do note what the fouled shot hits. Another thing you might try is, if you shoot on a clean barrel. When you get done shooting the first shot, do an extra extra good job of swabbing the barrel. Almost to the point of it being clean. Then shoot it.

I don't know Bonner. Could be about anything I guess. But I can tell you that when I load a sabot that feels "funny" for some reason, I expect a flyer. Sometimes it's not there, but usually is. Sometimes it's extreme. Sometimes not.

Too complicated. No need for the alcohol patches, firing the three primers or the dry patch to spread out the powder residue. Just fire the gun with a clean barrel.

I think the squib load may do a little better fouling it. Thanks for input. I wish I knew how long i can leave this thing fouled and not worry.

i'm in the hunt on a clean barrel camp.i just dry patch the storage oil out of my barrel and make sure my breechplug is dry and load.it does take me a little longer to sight in and if i'm using blackhorn my clean barrel groups are only slightly larger.when i've shot while hunting i'll just reload and then run a damp solvent patch both sides,dry patch and retape the muzzle.this load has always shot very close to the first and i,ll leave this load in the rest of the season ,with no issues so far..........karl

I am not an advocate of leaving a rifle fouled for extended periods of time, but with some powder, the rusting clock sure seems to slow down. BlackHorn 209 I have read is one such powder. Another is Triple Seven. Some people leave their barrels fouled for up to a week. Ask Sabotloader how long he has gone between cleanings with Triple Seven.

I would never try that leaving them fouled with Pyrodex or Black Powder. Although a few years back I did a test with Pyrodex, APP, Triple Seven, and Goex I believe was all of them. And I cleaned barrel steel then placed powder on that barrel and ignited it. Then just let it sit. The control sample being clean steel never rusted of course, but Pyrodex RS and Goex did rust with in a couple days.

Almost everyone has there own way of doing it. Here's mine. I believe that hunting with a muzzleloader is for the most part a one shot deal. The only time I've found a second shot neccesary was to either finish off a downed deer or to shoot a second if the chance arises. Which is rare but has happened. When sighting in all my shots are with a clean barrel. With a side lock three caps are fired to dry the barrel and the gun is loaded and shot, cleaned and repeated. Before hunting the same process is followed, three caps fired and then the gun is loaded for the hunt. With an inline it is a little different. No caps are fired to dry the barrel since you can dry the barrel and primer hole before loading without firing off primers. If you feel uncomfortable leaving your sidelock loaded for any period of time after having fired off caps before loading then you will have to fire the gun at the end of the day after and clean it that night. I don't do that. I leave it loaded for the next days hunt. Unless you have a bore light you'll never see the inside of the barrel, as I have never seen the inside of mine. I haven't noticed any ill effects as far as rusty patches to indicate any damage to the bore. And I have left mine loaded for days before shooting it. Good luck. I'm sure in time you will develope your own procedure. I give you mine just for some ideas. One day I should buy a bore light and drop it down the barrel of my almost 25 year old Hawkins to see what it looks like. No sweat, she still drops 'em.

I remove the oil from barrel. and after firing the caps off load it and shoot.i "don't run a dry patch" once i have fouled the barrel with the caps.

i dont oil my bore period. Oil always screwed up first shot accuracy for me. Even with an alcohol or windex patch prior to loading.

I spent 3 years trying to get around this problem,the last two were with Blackhorn.
I used to sight in by cleaning every shot while sighting in when I used 777 there was not much choice.
Last summer I finally work out a solution, it seems like overkill but it works for me.
I swab out the barrel with a 50/50 mix of #9 and alcohol fire 3 primers swab out again drying each time then fire 3 more primers and load.
This allows me to depend on the first shot hunting to be right on even at long distance. I use Montana X bore preservative to protect the bore and its part of the equation.

Lee this is good to know since i have a can of BH on it's way. Ray

Being a newbie I'm hesitant to add my meager experiences in these situations but I've had good luck with my Accura just firing a primer or two then just loading without doing a dry swab prior. My first and follow up shots are consistent,I don't know but I attribute this to JBing the barrel and using the MT ext bore conditioner.

My Triumph throws the first shot from a clean bore 1" high @ 100y.

I don't oil the bore until the season is over. In my experience, a clean muzzleloader is no more likely to rust than a clean smokeless centerfire.

I clean simply clean with Hoppes #9, finishing with 4 or 5 dry patches.

There are many variables that could affect point of impact of the clean/cold bore shot, isolating each of them and re-testing will be nice off season project. I'd start with eliminating the gun oil.

YMMV

Good luck on your hunt!

Good advice, and I do this exact thing with 777 or pryodex, but don't think it would work with BH 209? Never tried it because BH needs pressure to go off?

My muzzleloaders are sighted in to put the first shot on target from a clean barrel. The difference between a shot from a clean barrel and a dirty barrel is very small with my guns and their loads. About 90 percent of the time one shot is all that's needed. Sometimes a coup de grace is needed but that is done from very close range.

To each his own; do what works for you.

My ML shoots better off a fouled bore for me. After I check my sights/scope before the season, I give them a thurough cleaning. I too then fire a squib load of 30g of tripple 7 and a cotton patch, followed by a field cleaning of a spit patch and a few dry patches. Now I can load and go hunting. Durring the season I will clean my ML occasionaly after several rounds have been put down the tube. Before I hunt I always use my squib load/field clean/go hunt pattern.

I Hunt and Shoot on a Fouled Barrel, the MLer shoots just where it's suppos-to when the Barrel's Fouled. On a Clean Barrel you just never know exactly where the Bullets going to hit, it may be close but I want it to be on, not close.
But when you said you (did'nt) use a Brush the second time when you cleaned your MLer that would meant there's still a smal amount of Fouling in the Barrel. But you also said the Sabot loaded (easier) without the Brushing, this does'nt make sence to me as it should have had a littler more resistance without the Brushing then when you did brush it?? So I cant answer this one......
If it was the other way around where you did Brush the Barrel I'd say your MLer likes a Fouled Barrel.
So I guess you'll just have to follow your Original Cleaning Routine and use the Brush and then see if this makes a difference and your Bullet hits in the same spot when doing so. I still dont see how the Bullet loads easier when it is not Brushed vs when it is.
(BP)

breechplug;my inline T/C's have 8 lands/grooves,most sabots have 4 petals,by indexing the sabot you can have all 8 lands in contact with the petals or only 4 in contact with the lands the other 4 lands riding in the slots between the petals(these load easier and can cause fliers,thou in my experiance not as bad what the op had)
and i would respectfully disagree that a clean barrel can't shoot accurately:party0005:...........karl

Bonner1

First shot blues... shoot I even hate to talk about it because it seems a lot of folks face the same problem. Yours on the other hand seems to be a bit on the extreme side, BUT... if after one shot you drop right back in to the sweet place - I can not help but think it might be related to what might be in your bore during that first shot. But, then again....

I hesitate to tell you what my practices are because the really go against the norm - ya well what's new.... but I really never hunt with a 'squeaky clean bore' they are to unreliable for me. I would tell you that I hunt on a 'sorta semi-clean' bore. All of of my ML's shoot better, more consistent, on a fouled bore.

Gotta tell you have been doing this for years and it did take me awhile to develope the trust in what I do - but I do have confidence in the procedure and powder. In my case it is T7 but I have shot enough BH to tell i would not change a thing between the two powders...

What I do.... after the gun has been sighted in and shot multiple times on different occasions to confirm my sighting in process and the load that I plan on using.

Just prior to the hunting season, usually first part of October, I take the gun out and shoot 3-5 shots to confirm POI. When I get home with the gun I will run a damp (not even close to wet) windex patch and a dry patch - just for drill... At that point I run a slightly moist X-treme BC patch for two reasons. The Ether Alcohol in the BConditioner, will catch and evaporate any water vapor in the bore and will add a thin coat of protection to the metal of the bore. I really hunt in some lousy weather and would never hunt with a stipped bore - either a blued barrel or stainless, and yep! I do use muzzle mitts when appropriate. The evening prior to the hunt.. the gun is loaded and made ready for the morning hunting.

The gun will remain loaded this way as long as the season goes on. The only time I might shoot the load out or pull it is if I tell myself that I may have somehow compromised the powder. Other than that the same load could stay in the barrel for a couple of months.

If I do shoot the gun the gun during the season and yet I plan on continued use of the gun I just repeat the process suggested at the top and continue hunting. If I shoot in the field and reload in the field - prior to going home for the day I might shoot the load out or my case since I am cheap - I will pull the load at home, dump the powder, save the sabot for target practice, - then reapeat the process....

So in reality... the gun is never cleaned untill after the season... I do not even take the stock off or the windage caps off the scope - nothing is touched.... no need to do nuten.

I agree a Clean Barrel can shoot accurately on some MLer's. But how does your first shot compare to your next shot on a Fouled Barrel, how close are they? My first shot out of a Clean Barrel is'nt that far off from My Second Shot on the Fouled Barrel, but All My Shots on a Fouled Barrel are the same and that's why I like the Fouled Barrel for My First Shot as I know it's going to hit exactly where Im aiming. Sure My first shot will probably be close enough for a good shot but I'd rather be 100% confident on My Fouled Barrel Shot then 99 99/100% sure with My Clean Barrel Shot.
Also say you shoot and miss while your Hunting, now you have a Fouled Barrel and what are you going to do Go Home and Clean it then return so you have a Clean Barrel.
Again My shots are not that much different from a clean vs a fouled barrel, but for me I dont want to have to wonder weather or not my shot wil be close, I want to be sure it's right where Im aiming. And on a Fouled Barrel I donthave to worry as I know it's going to be where Im aiming.
Now if every MLer shot the same from a Clean Barrel vs a Fouled Barrel that would be Great, but it does'nt always happen that way. And sure your First Shot should always do the job and then there should be no need to shoot the next one from a Fouled Barrel, but ya just never know so to be sure I want all my shots to be on, not the first one close then the next one's on, I want them all on.
And YES if you sight in on a Clean Barrel for the shot to be shot from a Clean Barrel then that's Great, but that's just one shot, then you have a Fouled Barrel and Yes I have done this in the past. But from now on I do it on a Fouled Barrel so each and every shot is the same.
(BP)

If it was me I would repeat your procedure and see what it does then. With the sabot loading noticeably easier with the flyer I suspect something was up with that load. I would try the whole process again for peace of mind and see where it shoots then on a clean barrel.

before BH209 was on the market i used T7 in my inlines and had to clean between each shot anyway due to the crudring so after my alcohol/windex patch both sides, dry patch both sides, light oil patch both sides,dry patch again both sides and load,retape the barrel and i'm ready again.after a hunting shot with BH209 i simply reload and then use a damp wd40 patch then dry and retape.then i have a smoke.then i go find my deer.i have been able to take 2 deer the same day twice in the past 3yrs so i'm happy and have confidence with my method and see no need for me to worry about a quick reload.i don't consider my way to be "the best"but it works for me......karl

Thats too easy and made too much sense - it doesnt work on my gun. Feel lucky that it works for you.

I agree. The best shots I have are with loads that have a slow steady drag. Just about all my bad shots have come from loads that went down "jerk" - slow drag then hit a spot where it would go down easy then catch again.

I really think I just am not getting it clean enough and there was residue left from solvent.

I will eliminate the dry patch after the fouling primer shots.

I just used a thin coat that one time. dry patched and alcohol patched. Next time at range - dead center.

Came home cleaned and did not use any oil and a had flyer. I will be using Monatana Bore Conditioner from here on as Sabot has recommended and others of you have recommended.

Lemoyne - thanks for the tips. Sounds like our guns are related

Lemoyne - How do you preserve your barrel after loading the gun with a fouled barrel - assuming you dont shoot it when you take it out?

Lee - anotyher question. after you fire first 3 primers and swab, are you swabbing to the point of getting clean patches or just a few pass throughs and firing off 3 more?

So you dont protect your barrel with anything after cleaning it and loading up? Just bare steel? How long are you leaving it exposed like that?

Agreed. Good point.

Breech - Believe me, I was just as confused about this aspect of it as you were. Only thing I can think of is that I possibly didnt run the dry patch enough to get barrel completely dry before alcohol patches thus perhaps creating a lubed surface when the powder from primers was shot on top of it???? I was using pretty wet solvent patches since I read most dont use brushes hence the reason I chose not to use the brush this time. The load went down "jerky" - slow steady drag then hit a spot and speed up then catch again. Only thing I can think of.

Sj I beleive Sabbot (as usual) and you are correct - the load went down "jerky" - slow steady drag then loose and then it would catch again.

I guess I didnt have my barrel dry of solvent before firing the primers thus leaving a film on the bore. That is all I can think of.