80 grains of 777 and 460 grain no excuses gives me 8 inch groups at 25 yards! Tried 80,85,90,95, 100, 105,110 grains 777 with no excuses. Have not tried pyrodex though. And I am going to try the new platinum 338 powerbelts with 80-100 grains of 777. Those are my next totry along with themaxiballs.