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Grass and weeds in my clover

Old 08-15-2003, 09:29 PM
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Default Grass and weeds in my clover

I have enjoyed reading posts on this forum for the last couple of months. I started about a year ago helping a fellow member of a private hunt club in managing approx. 35 acres of food plots on our property. Our property is in SW Arkansas. Soil tests and proper liming have been done for approx. 6 years. Our plots have been and currently consist of clovers and a fall planting of oats and austrian winter peas(AWP) drilled into the existing clover(if there is any left due to drought conditions). Year before last we disced plots and drilled oats and AWP and as is our practice broadcast fertilizer with the clover ( ladino and other various white clovers, crimson red)mixed with the fertilizer by spreader truck. Last year we drilled oats and AWP and overseeded (no discing) with clover (Whitetail, crimsom red) mixed with fertilizer. We generally fight summer drought problems(same problem this year) and are dealing with primarily bottomland heavy clay soils. We are having grass and weed problems and are working on solving this with timely bushhogging prior to seeding. We did our first POAST applications this past early summer. We probably did everything wrong with the herbacide application that is possible. To late, too little herbicide and too little water per acre (live and learn I guess.) We did control some of the grass but not enough and also having seasonal weed problems and our clover stand was probably the best ever until no rain. I hope that we have learned enough to be wiser next year in timing of mowing and herbicide application.
Now for my question. Does the clover fix enough nitrogen to supply nitrogen needed by the oats and AWP. Our soil tests recommended nitrogen (I don' t have the info at this time to know exactly what the soil test recommended) and we have been fertilizing with a low number of nitrogen fertilizer. I discussed with my partner that my understanding was that nitrogen use on clover enhanced weed and grass growth and his thought is that we need the nitrogen in the fertilizer for the oats and peas. Again does the clover fix enough nitrogen to suffice the needs of the oats and peas and is it probably causing grass and weed growth. Sorry for the length of the post and would appreciate your input.
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Old 08-16-2003, 08:41 AM
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Default RE: Grass and weeds in my clover

did you know that the atmosphere is 97% N2. Nitrogen fixation is cynobacteria and other certain bacteria which engage with ammonia. Legumes such as clover , alfalfa, soy, and peas have these bacteria in there roots and live in a symbiotic relationship. Some bacteria convert ammonia to nitrates.

Soil samples can be sent off to your local service agent. Usually these sample can be run for around $20. This would be the first thing to do.

If fro some reasons levels are low you can---

add anhydrous ammonia to the soil as do many farmers in our area to every year. They usually apply it every in the fall here. Your soil must be very moist as to hold the gass while it goes through it chemical process.

Or more easily spray on some liqiud nitrogen fertilizer. Around 100# per acre will give you approximately 32 units of nitrogen.

Hope this helps
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Old 08-16-2003, 10:25 AM
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Nontypical Buck
 
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Default RE: Grass and weeds in my clover

S. Texas; try 78% N2. If the atmosphere was 97% Nitrogen you would be dead. Nitrogen fixation with legumes is carried out by rhizobium bacteria.

Red clover can fix approx. 80 lb of nitrogen per acre per year. So if you didn' t harvst the clover crop you should have enough nitrogen for the oats.

Dan O.
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Old 08-16-2003, 12:04 PM
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Default RE: Grass and weeds in my clover

Sorry - meant to type 79% not 97%.

Actually deer feces contain decomposer bacteria which can produce ammonia from amino acids. this would be known as part of the nitrogen cycle.
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Old 08-16-2003, 12:32 PM
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Fork Horn
 
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Default RE: Grass and weeds in my clover

To add to what the others have said, the rhizobium bacteria may not be present in the soil or at least not in a sufficient amount to contribute to the nitrogen fixation. Using the proper innoculant when seeding would be recommended. Also, most weeds can do very well during a drought. Mowing during periods of decent rainfall will allow the clover to choke out the weeds to some extent. On the other hand, mowing during a dry period the weeds will normally come back pretty quick as the growth of the clover will be slower than the weeds. Adding nitrogen will only add to the weed problem in this condition. I prefer a 0-20-20 fertilizer with clover but normally use a 4-24-24 because it is readily available. If you haven' t used an innoculant before you might try overseeding with innoculated seed this fall.
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Old 08-17-2003, 07:20 AM
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Default RE: Grass and weeds in my clover

Thanks for the feedback and info. We are using innoculant. Obviously need more current soil test. We are working off of several year old test and assuming that our liming and fertilization are making the proper corrections. Do you need soil test every year? Will the soil test show the benefits from the nitrogen supplied by legume fixation?
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Old 08-17-2003, 10:09 AM
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Default RE: Grass and weeds in my clover

Soil tests give very accurate readings on Phosphate and Potash levels and needs. But, and this is seldom explained, it gives a lousy indication on Nitrogen needs. Nitrogen is contained in the organic matter and is released as the OM breaks down. What you should do for N levels is understand Nitrogen removal rates based on the crop planted. A very good sarting point for most food plots would be to assume that you need about 70 pounds of actual N per acre if its a mixed stand of grasses and legumes. Any more is probably wasteful, less down to about 40 pounds would be ok, less than 40 is probably not enough.
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Old 08-17-2003, 04:58 PM
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Default RE: Grass and weeds in my clover

Again does the clover fix enough nitrogen to suffice the needs of the oats and peas and is it probably causing grass and weed growth.
an average of 40 to 200 lbs of nitrogen per acre is adeed to the soil by legume bacteria annually if the crop in plowed under. Clover fix more nitrogen than to large seeded legumes.

On the other hand legumes are more efficient in the fixation of N on soils with low rather than high N content. It wuld be normal to grow legume crops previous to crop requirening large amounts of N.

Food for thought
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Old 08-17-2003, 07:02 PM
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Nontypical Buck
 
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Default RE: Grass and weeds in my clover

S.Texas; The highest rates of fixation (200 lb./acre) were by alfalfa and Korean lespedeza in a Kentucky trial. Clover is an average of 100 lb./acre for sweet clover and 80 lb./acre for red clover. Alfalfa has an average of 125 lb./acre. The reason that plants won' t fix nitrogen if there is an adequite supply in the soil is that it takes energy to fix atmospheric nitrogen so the plants preferentially use the soil nitrogen if it' s abundant.

They don' t even do soil nitrogen tests in my area. They just take into account the last crop that grew on the field and give a nitrogen rate.


Dan O.
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Old 08-18-2003, 04:38 AM
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Default RE: Grass and weeds in my clover

Yes Dan, my statement should or could have said alfalfa and most clover.

Anybody up for nitronegative, nitroneutral, and nitropositive crop discussion
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