BowTech Guardian/Commander observations

[Len in Maryland]

Many don't truly understand this new bow. Maybe I can shed some light on the subject.

1. The cams are totally different with the geometry opposite what you'd expect. The module is on the opposite side from what you normally find. This is in part a way of getting rid of the dreaded cam lean/limb twist. Call it an approach to a 'balanced' system.

2. The berger button has been moved down to get less of a differential launch off the string. A groove has been machined in the riser shelf to facilitate 'cock feather down.' This also moves the cable guard down which puts a different angle on the cables - let alone that they are now closer to sight window.

3. The cable guard, having been moved down, has also been kept to a minimum offset. Again to reduce cam lean/limb twist; but, creats another slight problem. The cables do 'cross' the sight window slightly. In many instances this is true to some degree on a lot of designs and is more pronounced on the shorter ATA bows. It is just slightly more on this design. Most experienced archers just look beyond it, but some might find it a hindrance. I didn't even notice it until someone brought it to 'thread' level. Again, to me it's a slight price to pay for all the added benefits of this design.

4. The movement of thecenter 'pivot' arm is a question a lot have voiced. I checked it today and at full draw it moves about .020 away from the cam. I don't think that is much to worry about and it's necessary to maintain the integrity of the design.

5. The limbs have two sweet spots or bending points.They areabout 2" from each end of the limbs and are centered by the center pivot. This makes the entire limb form a beautiful arc and distributes the load to each side of the center pivot.

6. While not being a true deflex design, it surely approaches the 'forgiveness' of such and yet still shows remarkable speed. I did a speed shooting test today and it faired well.

7. While it can be let down and disassembled without a press, care must be taken in doing so. If you're not careful you can either pull some threads out of the end of theriser or 'pinch' your fingers severly.[:@] There should be a press available within weeks that will handle both this design and the PSE/AR short-limbed bows.

That's all for now. I hope this helps some understand the design better.

MERRY CHRISTMAS

[muzzyman88]

Good stuff as usual Len. This bow IMO, is ahead of its time as far as technology goes. It definitely is a shooter. About the only I didn't like was the draw cycle. It seems to stack very quickly as I expected, but it also seems to hold that weight a very long time before breaking over. I'm young, but my one shoulder is thrashed. I felt it rather quickly shooting it. Its smooth, don't get me wrong, just not what I was expecting.

Maybe the 2k8 models with introduce smooth mods? In any event, I think this concept is going to be around for a while.

[DaveC]

ORIGINAL: muzzyman88



Maybe the 2k8 models with introduce smooth mods? In any event, I think this concept is going to be around for a while.

I could easily see that happening myself.
Just like the 05 to 06 Allegiance.

But, lets say they don't. Could one get by by dropping a weight class, or would the draw be as annoying even though it was "easier" due to the lighter weight?

Oh yeah, thanks for the input.

[Antler Eater]

Thanks for the input Len... good stuff.

There should be a press available within weeks that will handle both this design and the PSE/AR short-limbed bows

Wouldn't Sure-Loc's X press do this?

[BowTech_Shooter]

ORIGINAL: Len in Maryland

Many don't truly understand this new bow. Maybe I can shed some light on the subject.

1. The cams are totally different with the geometry opposite what you'd expect. The module is on the opposite side from what you normally find. This is in part a way of getting rid of the dreaded cam lean/limb twist. Call it an approach to a 'balanced' system.

2. The berger button has been moved down to get less of a differential launch off the string. A groove has been machined in the riser shelf to facilitate 'cock feather down.' This also moves the cable guard down which puts a different angle on the cables - let alone that they are now closer to sight window.

3. The cable guard, having been moved down, has also been kept to a minimum offset. Again to reduce cam lean/limb twist; but, creats another slight problem. The cables do 'cross' the sight window slightly. In many instances this is true to some degree on a lot of designs and is more pronounced on the shorter ATA bows. It is just slightly more on this design. Most experienced archers just look beyond it, but some might find it a hindrance. I didn't even notice it until someone brought it to 'thread' level. Again, to me it's a slight price to pay for all the added benefits of this design.

4. The movement of thecenter 'pivot' arm is a question a lot have voiced. I checked it today and at full draw it moves about .020 away from the cam. I don't think that is much to worry about and it's necessary to maintain the integrity of the design.

5. The limbs have two sweet spots or bending points.They areabout 2" from each end of the limbs and are centered by the center pivot. This makes the entire limb form a beautiful arc and distributes the load to each side of the center pivot.

6. While not being a true deflex design, it surely approaches the 'forgiveness' of such and yet still shows remarkable speed. I did a speed shooting test today and it faired well.

7. While it can be let down and disassembled without a press, care must be taken in doing so. If you're not careful you can either pull some threads out of the end of theriser or 'pinch' your fingers severly.[:@] There should be a press available within weeks that will handle both this design and the PSE/AR short-limbed bows.

That's all for now. I hope this helps some understand the design better.

MERRY CHRISTMAS

Nice write up Len...See you at the ATA Show!

[BowTech_Shooter]

ORIGINAL: Antler Eater

Thanks for the input Len... good stuff.

Wouldn't Sure-Loc's X press do this?

The X-Press will work great, it's what they use at the factory.

I believe Sure Localso makes an attachement to use on the super short limbs of the Mach X.

[Len in Maryland]

muzzyman88: If your shoulder is hurting you, try two things. First, tryreducing the DL slightly. Sorry, but I see way too many people over-bowed. I've reduced the DL rather than poundage on at least 3 customers in the past 6 weeks, and all of them didn't need the weight reduced afterthat. In fact, one even wanted the weight increased once the DL was reduced.

Second, try a lesser poundage for a while. Sometimes shoulder injuries can be 'nurtured' back to the 'desired' weight.

As far as the draw cycle, it's usually a design factor of faster and more efficient bow cam designs. Yes, they may be able to 'tweek' it later, but that is usually coupled with other factors.

Antler Eater& BowTech_Shooter: I personally wouldn't use the Sure-Loc or any other existing press on this new bow design unless the poundage was turned down significantly. As far as Sure-Loc having an adapter for the PSE/AR short-limbed bows, I haven't see that and therefore can't comment on its effectiveness. I own a Sure-Loc along with several other presses and just received WWAG's new press. There is not one of them that I would use on a new center pivot design at 70#. The pressure point on all of them is below the cam and actually below the 'sweet spot' and into the 'meat.' IMPO, it would be dangerous at this point and especially at this poundage.

The reason I bring this to you attention is the same reason why I encouraged Dealers not to press parallel limb bows in presses not designed for them. If not immediate damage, potential damage to the bow/limbs is possible. In the case of the center pivot design, I think damage would be imminent. Most Dealers will not want to turn the limbs down 15-20 turns each to just install a peep. Therefore, make yourself aware of the potential problems.

Even someone at BowTech was encouraged by my mention of the design of a press that would work well on this bow design. I have worked with the manufacturer to develop a design and I've already seen the prototype. It will work exceptionally well and is nothing more than buying an adapter to an existing press. This will keep the cost down to the Dealers and there will be no reason not to buy it and use it.

MERRY CHRISTMAS

[Parks71]

I like mine but I expected it to be faster I guess. I am getting about 261 FPS at 70# 29" Draw with gold tip 7595 arrows with a 100 grain tip.

My shoulder is hurtin pretty good so now Im going to turn it down to 65 pounds or so.

Does the speed sound right for the bow?

[muzzyman88]

Len, I know what you're talking about and I'm doing just that. I actually shoot a 29" without a loop so the bows I shot felt right without it. However, shooting the Allegiance side by side with the Guardian did tell me the Allegiance is going to be a nicer pulling bow, especially for hunting. I'm going back down tomorrow to shoot it one last time, with the weight turned down to 65 or less. But I really don't see it making all that much of a difference. I am just slightly dissapointed in the Guardian from this respect. Everything else about it is nothing short of amazing.

Parks, that speed does not sound right at all. Do you know what your arrow weight is? Even with a heavier arrow, you still should be getting in the neighborhood of 280-285 out of it. At least thats my guess.

[Parks71]

8.9 grain per inch and the arrows were cut to 28.5 inchs so around 254 grains plus the 100 grain tip. What do you recommend?


Let me guess, wrong arrows or somethings is wrong? I really need to find a different bow shop around here.