really looking for advise.. sort of long post

DOPVFT · 02-19-2006, 05:52 AM

I really need input from you guys. I am looking for a new 3d bow, strictly 3d. I want to stay with bowtech, I have the hat and don"™t want to change my screen name, kidding I like the product

. I"™ve narrowed the search to the allegiance and the constitution. I guess I should state that I plan on shooting both of these before making a decision.
I have some concerns. I am draw length challenged, 27.5 and want to shoot at 60# and my arrow is slightly above 300 grains. Speed is a bit of an issue for me. With rough speed estimations the constitution came out to 264 and the allegiance came out with 280. I saw on an archery talk signature somebody shootin a constitution at 27 dl 60# and 300gr arrow is getting 280 fps. For some reason 280 fps has been stuck in my head as the magic number to be "œcompetitive" in 3d. After thinking about it would the point of impact at 35 or 40 yards really be that different between a arrow going 264 verses one going 280?
Accuracy is a huge concern as well. I shot a pro 40 freedom now and the bow is incredibly accurate. I attribute that to me, and the large brace height, some where close to 8 inches I think. The allegiance has a 7 inch BH, I am pretty sure I can remain pretty accurate with that. My first "œprogressive" bow was an ultra mag with a 7-inch BH and I was stacking arrows at 20 yards, and was happy with my groups out to 40 yrds.
Each of these bows as some of what I am looking for. Assuming I like each equally, which one would you suggest and why? I am just looking for input to help with the decision make process. I have now given more thought to my next bow than I did when buying my last truck.

Thanks a lot
Mike

gibblet · 02-19-2006, 07:31 AM

i picked the consti. already have a hunting bow. i'm not done with it so i can't tell you as much as ausie or rickjames, but it really holds steady. its so steady its kind of scary - like its surprising, like, uh, ok, now there's nobody to blame but me. you can get it in real neat colors and make it beautiful. also, its not a parallel limb bow, so some of the negatives of that design you don't have to deal with. i hunt with a patriot, and feel the positives of the parallel limbs outweigh the negatives by far for that, but for 3d i'm not sure. i believe the old glory is considered parallel also, but it barely falls into that category, and should be taken into consideration also.

phil 5oh · 02-19-2006, 05:58 PM

There have been alot of very good scores put up on the 3D courses with both bows. The Allegiance is a very good shooter, in a short bow. I'd also choose the Constitution as a 3D bow. It'llserve youvery wellas an indoor bow as well. The nearly straight riser, and 8 1/4" brace, will make it amore forgiving bow than the Allegiance. The extra ata will also help in aiming, and holding steadier.I think the Constitution would be close to your 280 fpstarget. Mine at 29", 60#, came with a BC showing 306. My 05Allegiance was 314 or 316. Same specs.I shot an Old Glory and Allegiance last year. My scores were pretty much the same with both bows. This summer I'll be shooting a Constitution.Hopefully, my scores will go up.

Matt / PA · 02-19-2006, 08:03 PM

Mike,
My buddy Matt Bressler won the IBO National Triple Crown and took 3rd in the Worlds in MBR shooting an Allegiance..........nuff said.

If you have a shorter draw length like that and need the speed, don't handicap yourself further by lowering it further in the name of a strict target platform. You have to weigh the pros and the cons of each....will the Constitution be more inherently accurate? Maybe ,maybe not?
You have a shorter draw length and I think that would compliment the Allegiance just fine as evidence by the above example of Matt Bressler and I think his 28" draw length? (He was shooting his at 68# or so and 308fps)
I was given the advice of shoot the fastest possible bow that you canshoot accurately. If anyone tells you speed isn't an advantage, blah blah blah they're full of crap.
If I have 2 bows that I shoot basically the same accuracy wise and one is 20-30fps faster the choice is a no-brainer.

I shot my Constitution last year at 283fps and trust me there were times I wished that I had much more speed. Especially at Worlds......Itruly feel that if I had another 20fps on that bow I would have won. My yardage was pretty good but there were targetsout at the limit of the class range where they started dropping hard if you judged low and that was the difference on some very crucial X's.

All that said?........I shot my best score of the year a 322 IBO on a very long and tough 30 target course (as hard or harder than Worlds was) shot with my 60# Allegiance.

I think you might also be selling the speed a little short on a 27.5" Allegiance with fast mods and a nearly 300gr arrow. Keep the accessories light (loop and a simple Tru-Peep) and get rid of the silencers and eliminator buttons and I'd think you'll be into the low to mid 290's pretty easily?

The Allegiance is a very solid pointing bow, with a feel of being much longer that it really is........

I'll be honest with you........if you are shooting in the 260-270 range you are going to have a tough time competing with the big dogs unless you are superman with rangefinder vision.

I know the inherent advantages of neutral riser VS. reflex and long ATA vs. short but I will tell you flat out.....I'm a 30" draw length but if I was a millimeter under say a 29" draw length I would be shooting an Allegiance myself for 06' without a doubt.

One other thing......you might also want to consider either a target colored version with the Shrewd grip or a camo one and pick up a Shrewd and replace the factory wood one.
The grip is slim and comfortable but I know I have some hand placement issues with it due to the rounded profile. (Just a suggestion

)

Mike from Texas · 02-19-2006, 08:16 PM

I think for a good stable accurate 3D rig, I'd choose between the Old Glory and the Constitution. They are eequal in speed, but with the slighly higher brace height and the longer AtoA the Constitution would probably be the ultimate 3d/spot rig.

Rob/PA Bowyer · 02-20-2006, 07:58 AM

Matt, all I'll mention about speed is this....from 280 to 300, 20 fps, you will not have a difference in pin gap...not to the point that any pro in the world could shoot the difference.....however from 265 to 285, again, 20 fps...there is a difference....I experimented with this using my Tox and Boss scope.....my increments dialing in my scope never changed from 20-50 yards shooting 280 or 300....they dialed in exactly the same.......but when dropping lower than 275, I needed to add adjustments to zero it in.....

I cannot tell you why but that's the results I had....one reason I never worry about 20 fps beyond 280....I usually lower my poundage to shoot a comfortable bow while maintaining pin gap/adjustments without struggling.

Matt / PA · 02-20-2006, 09:29 AM

Rob,
What arrows were you shooting?
I shoot "Fat" shaft carbons and I can definitely see a difference out to the 45 yards I shoot between the 283 I shot last year and the same arrow shot at 310fps.

I just ran my exact arrow specs through a ballistic calculator....

2.3" vanes w/ a .375" height,
.338 Outside shaft diameter
28.5" shaft length

Assuming a point blank zero:

310fps
10 yds = -2"
20 yds = -7"
30 yds = -17"
40 yds = -31"
50 yds = -50
Which would mean that my max class yardage of approx 45yds would show a drop of roughly 40"

283 fps
10 yds = -2"
20 yds = -9"
30 yds = -21"
40 yds = -37"
50 yds = -61"
This speed would put my max targets at a drop of approx 49-50"?

Any ideas??

Rob/PA Bowyer · 02-20-2006, 10:28 AM

Matt, at the time I remember it was ACC's....now mind you I said, 280 and 300...your now at 310 or a difference of 27 fps....and notice I said there was a difference under 280 comparibly....perhaps we need to redue the experiment beyond 20fps....

DOPVFT · 02-21-2006, 05:15 PM

Thanks for all the help, guys.

I was leaning towards the Allegiance after reviewing my initial post. As I said I was able to shoot the ultra mag well out to 40 yards. I thinkthe BH on that was 7 inches as well.
I have heard more than a few times that 3d is a game of speed, and to be competitive I need to shoot 280+.
Matt thanks againfor all food for thought. I was really impressed when Frank let me shoot an allegiance. Just wish I would have acted on it before it was sold. The thing just did not move after the shot, and I was shooting with just the rest on. .. The only bad part about it was it really makes my pro 40 look sloooooooooow.

Thanks again guys
Mike

Matt / PA · 02-21-2006, 05:27 PM

Mike it's not just a game of speed........it's yardage, shooting ability and then speed. The problem is that even if you are extremely good at yardage estimation there will be targets where the speed will save a bad guess. Courses are set up to trick the eye and confuse your yardage estimation, but don't use the speed asa shortcut to learning this aspect of the sport. Use the speed to save your butt when your way off and snag an extra X or 2 when you're just a little off.

I'll just assume that you can shoot.

Remember the pros have access to full banks of targets and endless yardage estimation and shooting practice.......us weekend warriors aren't going to get it right everytime.