ok, i shot my shoulder out. i knew to quit and didn't. anyway i'm off from shooting for 2 weeks, but i'm still thinking. part of the issue, i'm convinced, is the draw-stop on my patriot. at full draw position i'm dead on it, and when i start the back tension there isn't anywhere to go, so if i'm fighting it at all i end up really fighting it. i'm wondering if i adjust my draw-stop so there's an extra 1/2" of draw, intending to never use it - i know it will mess up my cable if i do, if i'll be facing any unforseen issues. after using the no-peep for a couple years i pretty much have my postions established and am thinking with that ability for the string to actually come back farther than my 'anchor' - it will be a lot easier on my shoulder when i start the back tension process. just bouncing off any of you back tension shooters. john
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aka bucknasty
The average man seeks certainty in the eyes of the onlooker and calls that self-confidence. The warrior seeks impeccability in his own eyes and calls that humbleness.
I don't have a problem with the draw stop and back tension. I have my constitution set on 21lbs of holding weight. I just pull a little more and let the low letoff do the rest.
Maybe you are pulling to hard with a high letoff bow.
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Everyone always asks me what am I on?...........
What am I on???????
I am on my Bike 6 hours a day, Busting my A**...thats what I am on.
i'm just learning really. it goes well for a while, but when i fatigue a little i start fighting it like crazy.
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aka bucknasty
The average man seeks certainty in the eyes of the onlooker and calls that self-confidence. The warrior seeks impeccability in his own eyes and calls that humbleness.
Gibblet it is MUCH easier to shoot back tension with a draw length that is a little too short than too long.......if you get to stretched out you run out of ability to pull through properly with your back muscles. You'll probably also find yourself "Collapsing" at the shot if your are too stretched out.
My advice is to lower your draw weight slightly(At least at first until you are used to the feel)and move the peg a little to theSHORT side to drop your let-off. This will create a little more holding weight and less of that "Hang" feel at full draw, as well as lowering your draw length slightly allowing your back muscles to pull through more effectively.
If you are shooting off a hard wall like a stop peg produces a long valley is of no benefit.
Shorten up that valley and let-off a bit and she'll go off much smoother.
thanks guys. i did back the bow down to 60 pounds, but that's all i can do. when i can shoot again i'll shorten up that post a little bit and try that. and ausie, i know you're right about hanging it up when i start fighting it. i was able to do that for a week and then my addiction got the best of me and i couldn't quit shooting, that's why i'm in this predicament now. i guess shortening the draw, decreasing let-off and valley will help me maintain rhomboid contraction instead of relaxing them and having to re-start the process. any other tips?
i guess what i was thinking is that i would never reach the peg if i moved it to the longer position, so when i was at full draw position with my shoulder blade set there would still be a little room for the bow to be drawn and me to execute back tension without fighting that peg. but really my elbow isn't supposed to move back any more so i guess it may not matter.
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aka bucknasty
The average man seeks certainty in the eyes of the onlooker and calls that self-confidence. The warrior seeks impeccability in his own eyes and calls that humbleness.
ok, i emailed larry and asked his advice also. he said get off the wall, move the peg or lengthen my loop. i moved the peg. i couldn't resist shooting 20-30 arrows. (plus i re-read core archery and corrected my drawing process and raised my elbow a hair). the pain on top of my shoulder was non-existant without the drawstop to interfere and my pin just sat there instead of starting to dance when i continued thru the rhomboid contraction. there was no struggle. i can't believe it, but i like my new spongy backwall. there's no issue with overdrawing i don't think because i've been shooting that drawstop for so long and the no-peep for a year or two. i still am at full draw at the very front edge of the valley, i just don't have to fight that post.
he had said something about it at his school - about liking the hoyt wheelie because of the spongy wall and it being good for back tension release but i blew it off at the time.
__________________
aka bucknasty
The average man seeks certainty in the eyes of the onlooker and calls that self-confidence. The warrior seeks impeccability in his own eyes and calls that humbleness.
Gibblet it is MUCH easier to shoot back tension with a draw length that is a little too short than too long.......if you get to stretched out you run out of ability to pull through properly with your back muscles. You'll probably also find yourself "Collapsing" at the shot if your are too stretched out.
My advice is to lower your draw weight slightly(At least at first until you are used to the feel)and move the peg a little to theSHORT side to drop your let-off. This will create a little more holding weight and less of that "Hang" feel at full draw, as well as lowering your draw length slightly allowing your back muscles to pull through more effectively.
If you are shooting off a hard wall like a stop peg produces a long valley is of no benefit.
Shorten up that valley and let-off a bit and she'll go off much smoother.
I had to shorten my draw just a bit as well when I started shooting my sweet spot a few weeks ago. I also have to make sure my elbow was much higher than I typically shoot with the Ultra Extreme thumb trigger. With the back tension, I have to have my hand with the thumb facing directly down, and the pinky knuckle touching my face on top. This allows me the cleanest surprise release without anding up at full draw 15 seconds into the sequence fighting to make the thing go off. My biggest struggle is to have the shot go off unanticipated, but within my 7 second window of shot sequence.
I made a lot of progress with my sweet spot last week, but I find my sessions are best when I don't shot more than 50 arrows per session. I fatigue much quicker when shooting my back tension release. I do see a HUGE improvement though even when I pick up the thumb trigger, my shots are not anticipated and I think the BT release has been a very valuable training aid.
In Larry's earlier books he recommended shooting from the middle of the valley. But that was when most bows has long valleys without solid walls. The idea was that it was difficult to be consistent pulling into the wall. With todays bows that have a very short valley and a hard wall, consistency is acheived by pulling hard into the wall. On my Icon, it's either pull into the wall or let it get away from you. There is almost no valley.
It is probably easier on your shoulders to shoot a round wheel bow or other bow with a wide valley. I find that I cannot shoot my Icon or my Scepter more that 3 or 4 days a week or my shoulders get sore. To keep practicing I use my son's old PSE Nova with round wheels and 50# DW.
As we get older, our bodies can't take the stress that they used to. We take longer to heal. I hope that the bow manufacturers realize this and start making a better selection of bows with round wheels.
In Larry's earlier books he recommended shooting from the middle of the valley. But that was when most bows has long valleys without solid walls. The idea was that it was difficult to be consistent pulling into the wall. With todays bows that have a very short valley and a hard wall, consistency is acheived by pulling hard into the wall. On my Icon, it's either pull into the wall or let it get away from you. There is almost no valley.
It is probably easier on your shoulders to shoot a round wheel bow or other bow with a wide valley. I find that I cannot shoot my Icon or my Scepter more that 3 or 4 days a week or my shoulders get sore. To keep practicing I use my son's old PSE Nova with round wheels and 50# DW.
As we get older, our bodies can't take the stress that they used to. We take longer to heal. I hope that the bow manufacturers realize this and start making a better selection of bows with round wheels.
Hah.......the guy I partner with for most of my 3D outings shoots an Icon, and that thing has an incredible valley compared to my Patriot......lol. Just be glad you aren't shooting a Black Knight........
backtension and drawstop ? + bowtech
