Pointing - Trained vs Genetic

Doc E · 03-27-2005, 09:11 AM

Here is a pic of Grouse Gitter's pup (from the litter that Casey sired) doing it's thing at only 8 weeks of age -- definitely Genetic and not a trained behavior

Doc E · 03-27-2005, 09:21 AM

BTW, The owner's of the litter had planned to keep one female for themselves, but because they currently have too many things going on to have enough time to adequately train a puppy, they have decided to sell the one remaining female pup.

So, if anyone is interested, PM me and I'll put you in touch with the owners of the litter.

Snooky · 03-27-2005, 09:39 AM

When I raised big game and coon hounds, (plotts and treeing walkers), I had many young hounds that would asume the "pose" when they incountered something strange that caught their attention. Also had old dogs that were poor coon hounds because they spent too much time in the cattails flushing the roosters and not treeing coons. Not withstanding, I like to see a pup show potential to become a pointing dog.

WAYNE1 · 03-27-2005, 09:43 AM

Great lookin pup...

WAYNE1 · 03-27-2005, 02:11 PM

If I had'nt have picked Tank

I would have taken that last female in a heart beat. Tank...the male I chose, seemed to be the birdest of the group at that time, and the last female really seemed to be real birdy also....She'll make someone an "Awesome" bird dog....

SWOSUMike · 03-27-2005, 10:18 PM

Natural is better. I didn't even know you could just train a dog to point. Even if you could, you can't train in "drive." You might train a dog to point, but to get it to constantly seek a pointing opportunity like the genetically inclined dogs do is a big difference. Natural ability is by all mean the best way to go. Same with treedogs, which is my thing. Actually, believe or not, my 1 year old Original Mountain Cur is bred to be a treedog, and that he is, but he pointed a covey of quail this fall in the woods like a pro. It was great. I like the idea of having a treedog/birddog. You don't want this gritty pup retrieving for you, though

. He may point but he is still bred for that gritty treedog style. To say the least, he would not likely be careful with your bird

. Nice little pup there, Doc E. Looks like a birddog in the making.

drfatguy · 03-28-2005, 10:45 AM

Swosumike,
I can train a dog to point which has all the drive to search for birds you could ever want. I trained pointers to point. Their desire was to hunt objectives. They needed to learn to whoa to bird scent. My first Lab was softening on her flush. She locked up in a high-tailed point on a pheasant. I knew I hadn't been giving her enough clip-winged birds to catch. More clips and the point went away and she started flushing again. Drive and point are mutually exclusive. One must decide which is more important, point or flush, and train accordingly.

Dr Fatguy

SWOSUMike · 03-28-2005, 01:15 PM

drfatguy,
I see what you mean there. Still, I believe a good hunting dog, no matter what you hunt, needs both the ability to do what it does (point, tree, etc) and the drive. To me they are not exclusive. Any dog might bark up a tree at a coon or squirrel if they see one in the yard, but not any dog has the drive to look for them and accurately pinpoint the tree in a whole forest of woods. As for pointing dogs, I don't believe that a pointer that has no drive is going to make a useful hunting dog no matter how staunch he is on point. What good would it be to take a pointer out in wide country if he doesn't care to "look hard" for birds? Sure, he might point when he's near some, but if he doesn't have drive, that inborn "need" to go looking, then you won't have the same luck 9if you want to call it luck) as you would with a pointer that puts his nose to work as soon as the tailgate opens. Now when you get a pointer that goes to work immediately and naturally goes on point, then you've got a dog. Now, I must specify what I meant from earlier. I agree that a good pointer may need "training" to hold their point. The "whoa" command is not naturally understood, obviously, so the dog needs to learn what it means. I consider that different than actually teaching a dog to point. Naturally pointing dogs still need guidance to learn what you want, such as waiting on point for you before trying to flush a bunch of birds while you're still 40 yards back. I agree with you there that a strong flusher may need guidance to hold his point, but I still wouldn't want a dog that didn't have the natural drive. To say they are exclusive is an opinion. I say they go hand in hand with natural ability. I would hope that breeders would agree in their programs.

Snooky · 03-28-2005, 05:08 PM

Teaching a dog to stop and remain motionless IS NOT teaching a dog to point! Whoa is, or should be taught in the yard without birds and then when the dog points, whoa can be introduced to keep the dog from moving. You try to teach whoa in the presense of birds and you will likely end up with a blinking dog that is going to shun the birds when he smells them instead of pointing and unless they flush wild, you want even know they were there.

Doc E · 03-28-2005, 07:03 PM

Quote:

ORIGINAL: Snooky

Teaching a dog to stop and remain motionless IS NOT teaching a dog to point! Whoa is, or should be taught in the yard without birds and then when the dog points, whoa can be introduced to keep the dog from moving. You try to teach whoa in the presense of birds and you will likely end up with a blinking dog that is going to shun the birds when he smells them instead of pointing and unless they flush wild, you want even know they were there.

100% CORRECT There's a huge difference between a dog that points naturally and one that has been taught to "stand game".