Bruce H

Well, the last couple weeks a few of us have been a little rough on some people that were breeding dogs. Maybe a little too rough; but our goal was to make people understand the responsibilities that should go with breeding. That a lot of thought, testing, research, etc. should go into the decision. And think about not just the breeding and raising of the pups and the health of the mom, but what happens after the pups are placed in new homes. For example, does your state have a puppy lemon law? Ours does. What do you do if a puppy comes back to you with a congenital defect?

Rather than me writing a book on responsible breeding on this forum,there's an excellent site that was put together by Jane Anderson called "Learn to Breed Dogs" at http://www.learntobreed.com It's a great site for anyone thinking about breeding and asks a lot of questions that we, as breeders, have to answer every day. And even if you aren't interested in breeding, it's great reading.

As rescue coordinators for Minnesota for our breed (with 2 rescues in our home right now), my wife and I are very interested in responsible breeding. We have seen the results of the puppymillers and occaisionally the BYB's and it ain't nice. So, please, before you decide to breed your girl, give it some serious thought.

OK, off my soapbox now.

bhensley

Thanks, giving info and being harsh are two seperate things. You come in and have gave good advice, whether people like it or not. I know alot of your post comes from me and DocE going back and forth in the posts of people talking about breeding. The only thing is is he only wants to insult and talk paople down. I agree people should be responsible breeders. Hopefully someone will get some good use out of you post and link. Hopefully I have not came off rude to anyone argueing in their posts, even to DocE, if someone comes here to ask for help all I ask is for them to be treated w/ some respect. Like said, they are asking for help.
Brandon

Phil from Maine

I agree with this statement, as every breeder needs to be responsible for their dogs and pups health. Breeding should always be done to better the line of dogs you are breeding and not just for a quick buck or 2.

Thanks, giving info and being harsh are two seperate things.Also the choice of words being used brought out some of the harshness from me. As I can not agree with the choice of words being used in an earlier post here. Some of the responsiblity came from the poster on how the messages were recieved. I try not to create conflict here as I also enjoy the site. But will not just sit back when someone is using the words that were used ealier here to insult someone. We have no place for that stuff here as the goal to me is help others out and recieve the info that can help me in my hunting endeavor. Good Luck.

Doc E

deleted by poster

fantail

What's up doc? Been wanting to apologize for the "up north" comment, thought it was funny when I did it but it seems to have started a civil war. So I'm sorry. Have you read this article? I'm no rocket scientoligist but I have been around cattle all my life and it seems like this article has a lot of unneeded information. Almost like it's main purpose is to discourage anyone from breeding their dog. Maybe I'm taking it wrong, but is this similar to someone saying not to shoot a duck on the water or a turkey on the roost even if it is legal? I know everyone has a different level of passion for a given topic and that sometimes leads to saying you can't do it this way or that way even though you can and I have been guilty of it myself too.

SWOSUMike

I only read the checklist, but I disagreed with a lot of it. There is more to breeding than pure bloodlines and championships, and the list of things they seem to think you "must" be willing to do may have some "good things" to do, but they are by no means all going to be "musts." They seem to have based the checklist on pure bred dogs with showing in mind, and that is not always ideal for sportsmen. I hunt squirrel dogs, and these dogs usually are mountain curs or feists, both of which have developed into "breeds" per se, but they come from such broad gene pools that the thought of one being a "show champion" in the way that most people think of them is absurd. But one thing they are for sureis HUNTING DOGS! They are not AKC dogs (and hopefully never will be), but they have their respective registries with breed standards. From what I know, these "breeds" don't have many healthproblems that are recurring in their breeds, and it is very common to cross the different strains and squirrel dog breeds with great success. And you might be hard pressed to find breeds of dogs that are as consistent as squirrel dogs as curs and feists. Sure there are plenty of good squirrel dogs, but curs and feists are consistently squirrel dogs and they are regularly crossed with each other with the end result of more good squirrel dogs. There are a lot of people out there who think they need to tell others exactly how things need to be done and that they are wrong if they do things differently. I am not saying this web site is that way, but I do think this mentality exists quite frequently in the dog world. A lot of it is with good intentions and definitely good advice. But in the end it is nobody's call except the owner of the dog. I will probably breed one or both of my squirrel dogs in a year or so if they show me what i want in a squirrel dog, but I may not breed them to each other just because I have a male and a female. I will look for the best match up for my gyp (that's my disclaimer to make clear that I as an individual don't plan to breed irresponsibly); however, I will not let somebody tell me what I "must" do before breeding, etc. That is my call. I am glad to consider advice and all the factors that play in, but I don't think it is somebody else's call as to how I should go about breeding my own dog in my own backyard. I certainly don't think I should have to wait for only a champion show dog.That hardly exists intheworld of squirrel dogs where the focus is breeding healthyMEAT dogs.Thereare some bench champions, but the focus is on performance usually (hopefully). I will breed a healthy squirrel dog to a healthy squirrel dog that match each other genetically and in hunting style, looking to weed out negative traits by not breeding such dogs. That may mean mixing dogs that are not pure bred for the purpose of getting what I want in a hunting dog. That is not a bad thing, either. I think it is a good thing. But my dogs are not AKC dogs and neither is their breed.

Doc E

No apology needed -- I figured oout "where you were coming from" and I got a kick out of it myself.



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Mite

Swosumike
I think the website is used as a guide. Basically, its saying only breed if you have the money andhave a dog worthy of breeding. But the most important thing is betterment of breed in question. I see it like this.

1. Is your dog worthy to breed? How does the dog stack up with other dogs?

2. Are you willing to pay for breeding? Breeding pen, vet bills, etc.

3. Are you willing to test your dog before breeding? Guarentees?

4. What of the clients? How will they treat the pups?

And more importantly, will you be able to sell the pups?

I own a Llewellin setter. In my area, the dogs are very rare. She has a strong bird desire and natural pointer. I spent for air fare to ship her from MN to Seattle. My vet said I should breed her (he would do all the testing). My sis already had a couple of puppies sold. I also metother hunterswho were very interested in pups. If I did breed her, I would have to ship her east to find a suitable stud. Two puppies sold would pay for welping costs and airfare. But after thinking about it, I decided all the hassle wasn't worth it. If I wanted another dog, I know where to go. So, she got SPAYED.

The decision was because I didn't truely know what I wanted in dog. Range, style, intensity I know but temperment, conformity, etc. are not my strong suit. There are better people out there who have the resources, time and vision to produce better dogs than I. I would perfer to leave it up to them.

Bruce H

SWOSUMike: I agree with you, there are a number of things on that site that are a bit over the top. For example, I would venture to say there isn't a breeder in this country that breeds only champions and I don't know of anyone that has a lifetime guarantee on puppies. However the majority of it is good information that revolves around responsible breeding.

Everyone: If it sounds intimidating or overly cautious, I think it's meant to be that way. There are just too many people that go into breeding without a clue about health issues, lines, etc., etc. Or they think they are going to make some money. When things go good, it's great, but when things don't go so good, it's really tough. I think the hope is that it will make people think twice about breeding.

My opinion about getting into breeding is that you should hook up with a responsible breeder. Read everything you can about breeding, especially the breed-specific books (you should see our library of books and videotapes; it's almost scary!). Go to the classes that are offered in so many places on dogs and breeding. That's what my wife and I did and we are now helping two other people who are interested in breeding.

Yes, this is a free country. Everyone has the right to breed their dog if they want to. And yes, I do tend to get a little excited about responsible breeding, especially after getting involved in rescue a while back. So I'll try to calm down a bit now and just let this go.

Phil from Maine

I feel it is a good thing to be overly cautious, a friend of mine had bred a pair of English Setters that had been field trialed here. They had won some of the grouse and woodcock trials and did great for him. However when he had them bred he had deposits for six or seven pups. When the pups were born they all died except for two, and all requested their deposits back. He had a very hard time selling the two that lived, as no one wanted to take a risk on those pups. He had found out the hard way on breeding issues and the female had been spayed and no more pups for him.

On another note I have a pair of Irish Setters and have bred them once 2 years ago I had no problem selling them asit isvery rare to find the hunting lines of these. I have had several requests if I choose to breed them again, to date I have no plans to. From my last litter of seven pups they have been sold from here to PA and all have been very happy with them. I also make it a habit to contact them every once in a while to keep a good relationship with them. from the ones in PA and NH I recieve e-mails and pics of them every once and a while. To me it is more then breeding them that counts as I like to keep everyone happy with what they purchased from me. The pups are all family pets and hunters and they love the birdy style they have enjoyed with them. One has had and bred the English and has commented he had never had a dog so birdy before. And that he has never seen a dog catch a woodcock until now.

Sorry for the long message but, I wanted to say that responsibility goes a long ways.