223/ 12 over under

[WVDanimal]

Looking for feedback or suggestions on an over/under rifle shotgun combo for fox/coyote. Nearly everyone I've spoken with says the savage is either hit or miss trying to get shotgun and rifle impact same place. Already wasted $600 on the Remington (Baikal) version that turned out to be a complete joke. Are there any other companies currently making these combos that actually take them serious enough to put some quality into their work?

[halfbakedi420]

are you wanting the bead to be on time for shotgun and the rifle?

[WVDanimal]

That's the issue I've heard about the Savage's, with optics though. For example: when you sight in the rifle at say 100, the shotgun will pattern 8-10 inches to the left at 20 using the same crosshair. That was about the experience I had with the Remington. Not to mention that the "x-full" choke threw basket ball size patterns AT 20 YARDS!

[Nomercy448]

Originally Posted by WVDanimal

That's the issue I've heard about the Savage's, with optics though. For example: when you sight in the rifle at say 100, the shotgun will pattern 8-10 inches to the left at 20 using the same crosshair. That was about the experience I had with the Remington. Not to mention that the "x-full" choke threw basket ball size patterns AT 20 YARDS!

The biggest problem with patterning shotgun/rifle combo's is that these are generally rifles with a shotgun barrel attached, i.e. they have 18-22" barrels. The pattern out of an 18" Rem 870 is gonna be that size too... The barrels are just too short.

I have a .222rem/20ga pre-war Savage O/U, but don't hunt much anymore (hard to justify reloading the .222 when I have 8 223rems in the safe, plus, it's a single shot). It took a lot of tuning to find loads that fired the same POI, and ultimately, they were only regulated at 30yrds, so at 50 and 100yrds, they were way off (not that I'm shooting a 20ga to 100yrds anyway).

For me, the SIMPLER/FASTER option was mounting a pic-rail with a scope on top, and a 45deg off-set base with a TruGlo red dot for the shotgun barrel (My Savage has the rifle on top). If a dog came in close, or I was hunting at night, I'd tip the gun inside and use the red dot sight, if I were calling during the day and had a dog at 300yrds, I have the luxury of the scope.

Honestly, these guns were designed to be shot with the sights tuned for the rifle barrel, and the front sight used to "point" the shotgun barrel. They never really were meant for "AIMING" the shotgun.

[WVDanimal]

Kind of a shame really, seems like they were just never perfected nor a big hit. I've always been intrigued by the concept and feel that it would make the perfect predator package. My uncle has a Savage 222/12 that he has taken a ton of critters with and says it's dead on at 100 and out to 40 with the shotgun, using the same duplex crosshair in a Nikon scope. I've tried to acquire that one for years to no avail. A buddy who worked at a gunshop searched for years for one like that. He tried out every one that came through the door but could not find one that would do it. His advice was to never buy one before you can try it out. If the owner hesitates when you want to try it out, don't even bother going any further.

[Nomercy448]

Originally Posted by WVDanimal

Kind of a shame really, seems like they were just never perfected nor a big hit. I've always been intrigued by the concept and feel that it would make the perfect predator package.

It sure seems like a good idea, but at the end of the day, the combo gun will always have its drawbacks.

They're two different barrels, so just like O/U or SxS shotguns, the barrels have to be regulated to some specific range where they'll "intersect", and beyond that, all bets are off. The biggest problem you'll see is that neither barrel REALLY shoots parallel with the centerline of its bore. If all rifles shot exactly where the centerline of the bore pointed, then we'd never have to sight in our rifles at the range. We'd just throw in a laser boresighter and we'd be on our way. But the reality is that that first shot usually misses the laser's mark by a few inches.

The cheap and easy way to "test" whether the barrels are regulated well or not is to use cartridge arbors and laser boresighters. If the two dots line up vertically, you have a chance at finding ranges where you can use the same POA. If they're 4-5" left or right, then you're probably SOL.

The GOOD news is, if you're so inclined, is that you CAN take a double gun to a good gunsmith and for a few hundred bucks can get the barrels re-soldered to re-regulate the barrels.

Again, the cheap (read smart) way is to find a load that the rifle barrel likes (i.e. produces the best groups) and sight in the scope for that load. Then play with different shot loads until you find one that shoots to the same POA, say at 40yrds, like you mentioned.

Honestly, they're a novel idea, but they don't work incredibly well in the real world. I have missed a LOT of opportunities when I was carrying that combo gun and had 2 or 3 dogs come in. It's mighty hard to drop a double with a combo gun, unless you get them almost in your lap before you drop the first one (in general, I would shoot the farther one with the rifle, then swing to the runner with the 00buckshot. My dad used to do it the other way around, shoot the near one with the buckshot then drop the runner with the rifle). A poorly hit dog that needs a follow up rifle shot is pretty much SOL, and a close up runner that needs a repeating shotgun is SOL too.

After 20yrs of back and forth, I'm back to carrying a rifle and a shotgun to every set. No, it's not ideal carrying two guns, but being limited to a single shot of either was more restrictive than it was worth.

[Ridge Runner]

here is mine, valmet 412, 12/223 has a bansner choke, rheinhart fajen trap stock and a 2.5x8 loopy

they've been sold as the valmet 412, sako 512, savage 389, the barrels can be regulated to both shoot same POI.
I don't know why you say the bakail/spartan is junk the barrels can be regulated also and seem to shoot well, at least the 3 I messed with did.
you can even regulate the savages all it takes is a shim between the barrel in those I fooled with.
RR

[WVDanimal]

See, learn something every day! I did not know you could alter the barrel placement at all. I am certainly no gunsmith but that's something worth checking out the next time I come across one. Thanks for the input guys.

[Ridge Runner]

a pic of the muzzle of my 412, see the screw between the barrels, there is one on each side, tighten one loosen the other to move left and right, after shotgun is sighted in you use this horizontal adjustment and the verticle under the forearm to sight in rifle barrel with desired load at desired distance, the spartans are very simular.

RR

[WVDanimal]

I checked out a Baikal last evening. It doesn not have an adjustment screw near the muzzle like the one shown in the picture of the 412, no type of adjustment at all on the front. There is a screw like this back at the forearm but what would this do since the barrels are fixed at the front and at the base???