How fast must they go?

[charlie brown]

I just got to thinking. All other items being put aside (actual powder compatability, pressures with certain powders for certain cartridges, etc.), how fast must we push JACKETED bullets in the middle of the weight range, for any caliber to reliably make sure they will make it down range and not get stuck in the bore. I am talking normal centerfire rifle cartridges with standard length barrels (22-26"). For example, looking through my Speer manual, I see some loads getting into the 1500 fps range. How much lower CAN velocities get before we risk having a bullet stuck in the bore? Just a thought. Don't worry, the only bullets I have used reduced velocity loads with have been lead bullets in my .30-06. These are just fun target rounds with Unique powder. I see no point in pushing a bullet at absolute minimum velocities, just wondering what would be possible.

[James B]

Useing powders made for reduced loads such as SR4759 you can load something like the 308 Win with a 165 grain bullet down to about 1800 fps. My Speer manual has reduced loads for most calibers. This is a subject that I ponder as well. You can load a bullet fast enough to expand well this requires velocities o5 about 2400-2800 fps. You can load a bullet to speeds where penetration will be reduced drastically by over expansion. The bullet construction comes into play as well. I was reading test results of hard cast bullets fired at velocities from 1600 to 2700 from the 45-70, 458 Win. 458 Lott and 460 Weatyherby. The 45-70 at 1600-1800 fps penetrated 50 percent further than the 460 Weatherby with the others falling in between. High velocity will increse tratjectory but at a point you can have to much velocity for good bullet performance. In my mind and from shootin hundreds of game animals of all sizes, I find that for most calibers 2700-2800 fps works very very well. The secret of the 308. 7x57 7mm-08 and the 6.5x55. They are effecient and deadly at those velocities. And most of all, consistant. Big heavy bullets do not need velocities nearly as high. The old 45-70 with 500 grain bullets traveling at speeds from 1100-1300 fps nearly wiped the American buffalo off the map.

[Virginia7]

ORIGINAL: James B
..... The 45-70 at 1600-1800 fps penetrated 50 percent further than the 460 Weatherby with the others falling in between. ..... Big heavy bullets do not need velocities nearly as high. The old 45-70 with 500 grain bullets traveling at speeds from 1100-1300 fps nearly wiped the American buffalo off the map.

Didn't the British have a theory on this? Something about momentum? Big heavy slugs at moderate velocity having better/more consistent penetration. Also, something to do
with killing power being related to time the bullet spent in the animal/wound channel?
I guess this last would have to do with time for energy transfer?

[Roskoe]

I did some load development a few years back for the .300 Whisper (AR-15 rifle). The round needs to be sub-sonic with 240 Sierra Matchking to work like it was intended - and about 1100 fps was no problem.

[James B]

Many of the old black powder cartridges that were used by the British were sure not speed demons. They counted on Big bullets and Balls to do the job. Cast bullets with wide metplates or nose width create large wound channels and turn surronding tissue into jelly. The study I read recently was on either the Garret or Corbon site. The new Dixie slugs are made to duplicate the monster black powder rifles used in Africa and India. The Dixie slug is a 750 grain HARDENED(heat treated) slug that runs at 1300-1400 fps. You can check them out at dixieslugs.com. Velocity is a game of its own and when teamed with the right bullet that will stand up to the impact speeds sure have their place but you don't need what is considered high velocity now days to kill game cleanly. For NA big game out to 300 yards I would put the 308 up against most other calibers with a lot more ON PAPER ballistics. I shoot a lot of heavy cast bullets in the 45-70 and 44 Mag.

I have hunted big game with rifles up to and including the 416 Rem Mag. I have hunted the whole deer family with the 300 and 338 mags but to be honest the 308 and 6.5x55 have done it every bit as well and often better because They have ample power and trajectory and I do my best shooting with them.

[Virginia7]

JamesB:
.....to be honest the 308 and 6.5x55 have done it every bit as well and often better because They have ample power and trajectory and I do my best shooting with them.

I hear ya'! I've used the 308Win. for over 20yr. now, and it does a great job. I've also
got a 270Win., for those instances where I know I'll be hunting more wide open spaces,
and a 358Win. for the woods (or big stuff too).
I got away from the magnums years ago. I figure if I need that much power/velocity, then I'll step up to a 375H&H - a real magnum.
Fact is, over the years I've come to realize we could hunt anything in NA with the oldies
but goodies, such as the 6.5x55, and the 7x57. For close stuff, the 30/30 or 45/70 will do nicely.

[James B]

The 45-70, while it lacks the long range abilities(for us modern shooters) is as versitile a rifle as ever came out. I am working up black powder loads to enter the Guigley shoot in Montana in June. The targets are from 350 yards to 800 yards. You must use iron sights and cast bullets. these ranges are new to me. Its hard to find a place to practice at 800 yards, almost half a mile. I am shooting the 500 grain Government RN with as much 2F black powder as I can get in the case. Smokless powder is permitted and I am working up some loads with 5744 as well. The old pros say however that you will never get the range and accuracy with Smokless powder. Black powder is a real pain to use when you get right down to it and I can see why the fore-fathers worked on getting into smokless powder. We can use any lever action or single shot from 375 diameter on up. My black powder loads are screaming at just under 1300 fps.

I shot steel silhouettes with a 308 for about ten years. It knocked the 500 meter rams over pretty well with the 190 grain Hornady BTSP and BTHP bullets loaded with 4064. Magnum rifles were not allowed at our range because of damage to the targets. Sometimes on the closer targets they would shoot holes through them and not tip them over. I have sold all the magnum rifles that I owned some years back.

[charlie brown]

Good luck with your endeavor James B!!!

[Virginia7]

ORIGINAL: charlie brown
Good luck with your endeavor James B!!!

I'll second that motion!
JamesB., what rifle ya' using?

[Doe Dumper]

Hey James I get the feeling that somewhere in all that theres an excuse for another gun purchase