Landngroove

I have semi auto, and bolt action 30-'06 rifles. I am going to be hand loading for the upcoming deer season. In the past I have used small base dies for my semi auto. I would like to use the upcoming hand loads in both my semi, and bolt, so my question is, is there a downside to use small base handloads in a bolt action?

Nomercy448

If you're simply reloading - meaning effectively recreating what could easily be a factory load, not particularly suited for any given rifle - then you're not fully realizing the potential of your rifles, but you do garner the "advantage" of being able to prepare generic ammunition which works well enough in any of your firearms of that cartridge.

The small base resize won't well fit your bolt gun chamber, then I would hope the headspace matching well to try to center on the shoulder, else that cartridge will be swimming around in the chamber. What's the base-to-ogive length for your selected bullet in each rifle? The headspace length?

How precise of ammunition are you wanting to produce? If you're just reloading, not really handloading, then you'll likely be able to find a load which works fine in both. If you're wanting to handload and find an optimal round for either rifle, then small base sizing for the bolt gun won't bring any benefit.

However, as long as you're getting a well fit headspace, in 30-06, you likely will only see a very slight shift in precision, if you see any measureable effect at all.

Berserker

I use Lee. No idea base size. I disagree with the comment about just creating generic factory loads.

Whenever you try different powder loads you are going past good enough factory. I would argue the same could be said for the bullet you use. But you could spend $$$ a get higher end bullets too. Then there is seating depth.

I realize I am not are a long to reach the maximum, but I am past factory.

I have heard people say to use small base for pump rifles. But you hear lots of BS about pumps that is not true.

Nomercy448

If you don't make ammunition which fits your chamber better than factory loads, or with a more forgiving powder charge for the selected powder and bullet weight, then you're not making anything better than factory, just because you pressed it yourself.

If a guy is arbitrarily trying to make rounds which fit multiple rifles - for example using a small base die and full length sizing to accommodate a pump rifle, then shoving those rounds into a bolt action which might have a longer, looser chamber, he could very easily find himself with rounds which aren't well suited to the bolt gun, and have consequentially poor precision.

The simple act of reloading doesn't automatically produce high performing rounds - if a guy doesn't know how to pick a powder & charge weight which will yield consistent release (google Positive Compensation), and doesn't know how to match their ammo to their chambers, they're not doing themselves any favors.

If your Lee isn't marked "SB," then it's a standard FL die, not a small base.

Landngroove

Well, after much discussion, I will continue to make my handloads for my remington .30-'06 7400 semi with RCBS small base dies. I will also continue to make my handloads for my savage bolt .30-'06 with standard RCBS dies.

Berserker

So you are using different 30-06 dies? What effect does the base have, and why choose it for each rifle? I do not know the answer, and wonder if you do either?


I use the same 30-06 die for my pump and bolt rifles. I have used neck sized brass from bolt in pump, and it worked just fine for 100 yards. Though my normal loads for the pump are full sized. My bolts neck and full.

Maybe you are getting better results than me. So far I am only 1 MOA. But I think I can do better, but yet to prove it.

Nomercy448

The use of a small base die with a pump action rifle has nothing to do with precision, but can be an advantage for reliable feeding and chambering.

Since there's no camming leverage to help close a pump gun on a slightly oversized cartridge as there is for a bolt rifle, small base dies offer an advantage. If a guy has a sufficiently loose chamber, then a standard die will size the base small enough to close comfortably. Some guys note in the 7600's, it can be almost impossible to close the bolt slowly, as in sneaking it closed when chambering that first round upon arrival at the stand, when using a standard FL die. Slam the pump forward and a guy might find little difference. Similarly, in 223/5.56 for AR's or 30-06 for M1 Garands or 308win for M1a's, if you ride the charger forward slowly, match chambers in custom barrels might argue with reliable chambering of rounds sized with FL dies.

It's a common enough issue for pump guns.

For the OP, I'd personally measure the case bases of once fired and FL resized rounds from your pump gun. If you have sufficient downsizing of the base for reliable feeding, don't look for a problem where there is none. If there's insufficient base sizing with a standard FL die, then I'd measure the same offset for your bolt gun, compared to the FL resized base AND the small base resized base. If the small base isn't significantly undersized, roll on and be happy, small base everything. If the small base IS significantly undersized, then I'd compare the headspace of the fired brass from each rifle. If a significant shoulder bump in the pump gun would be a lesser but sufficient shoulder kiss in the bolt gun, then I'd roll on and small base everything. If the headspace dimensions don't match up well, I'd continue to use separate dies for each.

Important in all of these comparisons is to observe the appropriate base to ogive length for each chamber. If you have a short throat and close leade in one rifle but not in the other, then you can be sure you'll struggle to find a seating depth which really well suits both rifles, regardless of the results of the above comparisons, so you'd need to seat the bullets differently for both rifles. If the throats do match up for base to ogive length AND the above criteria are met for headspace and base size, then roll on with one load made for both chambers. Considering a bolt gun against a pump gun, the likelihood of this all lining up might be on par with finding a rainbow farting unicorn.

Berserker

So how does the product of small base die, compare to factory ammo?

With factory ammo, I know I can't sneak a round in. I can't imagine being able to. On a side note, that we have to load in the blind, is an over step of the DNR. DNR has no regar for the 2nd Amendment or 4th.


As forn pumps, I find there is alot of misinformation out there. Is this one, I dunno. But they don't deserve the rep for poor accuracy.

Ya they have less camming, and this may help. But I would think this would only be needed on higher pressure loads. I have no problem with full published IMR4350. Thouh I did have some problems with Hunter.


Why bother owning both dies? Why not just use small base dies for everything?

Again, wouldn't small base dies, be smaller than factory, which are built in any rifle? Though at lower pressures.

Nomercy448

You're confusing yourself. The extraction camming action of a bolt action is not the same as the leverage advantage gained to aid in closing the bolt on a slightly oversized cartridge.

Load is irrelevant. If the round is a little oversized, the pump gun doesn't give you the leverage advantage to CLOSE the bolt. A slightly oversized round might actually open easier after firing compared to how it closed when loaded.

If you can't "sneak it closed," then your rounds are oversized. Whether that's long on headspace or fat on base diameter. A guy should be able to close the action just as easily when loaded as when empty - with just a slight bit of additional felt resistance.

Making small rounds to fit a small chamber might leave the rounds undersized for a larger chamber. This over works the brass for that rifle, and leaves the cartridge with excessive "slop" in the chamber - and a major driver of precision is consistent and concentric positioning of the bullet in the bore axis, centered and true, when fired. If you're undersizing the brass, it'll lay or wedge to one side of the chamber and may not center itself as well as if it were properly sized. See my description above (again) in my other posts describing how this can be managed, ONLY if the chambers match for headspace.

No idea what you meant to say here, as it reads like gibberish to me. A small base die is needed only when the cartridge is forced into an interference fit when chambered. As described repeatedly above, the base is one of the control points to ensure the cartridge is centered in the chamber, so the bore is released cleanly on the bore axis. So often the base is the tightest dimension on the ammunition - especially with a tapered body cartridge like the .30-06. This is what creates that resistance when you're trying to close the slide, and what a small base die can correct.

Small base dies have a purpose. Failing to understand cartridge-to-chamber fitment or firearms action design does not negate the purpose or advantage of a small base die for applications it is needed.

Ridge Runner

have never used small base dies on anything except 1 browning auto that had a min. spec chamber If you use SB dies and don't need them, brass life sux!
RR