Finepoint

I think there may be a problem here in determining what is a genuinely statistically valid result. Three-shot groups are OK for determining a rough hunting zero, but for group size you need to fire at least eight three shot groups (each from a cold barrel)and average the result. Similarly, to determine velocity, you need to fire a minimum of eight shots through your chronograph and average the results. Note that eight data points are needed to be assured that the number you get is not random at a 95% confidence level. Needless to say, ten would be better, getting to a 98% confidence level.
The difference in trajectory caused by a 100FPS change is less than the random variation caused by a 1" increase in group size. Trajectory is predictable and can be compensated for; randomness can't.

Nomercy448

Impossible to run that type of generality for statistical validity without examining the dataset itself. 10 shots out of a load with 90fps ES might not be within a 95-98% confidence interval even with 10 shots, alternatively, a load producing 10fps ES might be valid after 4 shots.

I personally have found that the 5 shot group has a lot more to do with the shooter than the rig. The odds of throwing a flyer out of a 3 shot group is relatively low, whereas it often seems that the odds of throwing a flyer in a 5shot group is almost certainty. Shoot 10 shot groups and I haven't seen the same likelihood of 2 flyers (if 1/5 is a flyer, then 2/10 should be, right? But that's just not the case). Then we have to ask the question - why are we shooting groups? Hunters don't shoot groups at deer, we throw one bullet after one target. So accuracy really is all that matters, precision is just a side effect of repeatable accuracy. (Of course, precision being the repeatability of a result, i.e. small groups, and accuracy being the ability to achieve the desired result - i.e. hit the target. Precision, in our case, is about the rifle and shooter, accuracy is simply about the POA vs. calibration of sights).

Given the right day, the right shooter, and the right rig, "groups" don't even need to be fired at the same target to produce supreme precision and accuracy (certain competitive shooting sports run this way - one shot per target).

Kachok

I too reload 7mm-08, my absolute best load is 47.5gr of Big Game and a 140gr SGK. I am pushing an impressive 2950fps out of a 22" barrel and 3/4" groups all day, give it a try. Normaly 3/4" groups would not impress me much but considering this gun shot 5" groups with everything else I'll take those 3/4" groups any day. Start a couple grains lower because this is a max load, no pressure signs as long as I am using Rem brass but Win brass gives me a slightly flattened primer. The only other power I have had any luck with is H380, works great in all bullet weights just not as fast with 140s as the Ramshot Big Game, shot exceptionally well with 120gr using compressed loads.

Finepoint

It was my understanding that the original post was interested in improving the precision of the load/rifle combination, not improving the shooter. The latter can be done with an air rifle in the basement. To test the load and rifle, one needs to eliminate the shooter as much as possible,hence the bench, sandbags, etc. I regard this as a valid sport all by itself.
Hunting adds a whole different set of variables, but an accurate rifle certainly helps to make a humane kill. While some may be comfortable with any hit in "the vitals" (whatever that is), I am ethically uncomfortable with it. If I can't be confident that my bullet will land within 3 inches of my target organ (usually the back wall of the right atrium) in that particular set of range. wind, lighting, shooting position, etc, I will pass on the shot. Knowing the random variation of the load/ rifle under ideal conditions that confidence. For example, my Type 99 Arisaka (re-chambered to 31-08) can group reliably just inside three inches (A number determined by careful testing and analysis because we humans are notoriously prone to self-deception.) That means I will take shots out to 100 yds under ideal lighting. My Mauser 98 in 30-06 will do 1 1/4 inches and is useful to 300 yds.

Ridge Runner

man your making it complicated, what the hell is the atrium? can I hunt not knowing what it is, like hold on the big part of them?
RR

super_hunt54

The right and Left Atrium are the top 2 chambers of the heart RR. The lower 2 are the ventricles.

Finepoint, if you accept 1 1/4" groups then your ID tag is very deceptive. Even my Muzzle loaders are all within 1" 5 shot groups. I accept nothing less. That 99 Arisaka of yours would be wrapped around a tree if it was mine if I couldn't get it better than just inside a 3" group. Most all factory rifles nowadays are very capable of MOA performance. If you can't tune a load to get it there then you have a problem with that rifle.

Ridge Runner

and to think I been deer hunting since 1970 and didn't know that! even managed to kill a couple, some out there a purty fur piece!
RR

Ridge Runner

my thoughts, if 3" at 100 is the best a rifle will do, it would be found driven barrel first into the ground at the corner of the garden with a gate hangin off of it. If I took my best rifle to be effective at 300 yards I'd darn sure be buying another rifle.
How can you have confidance in stuff like that?
what kind of groups are needed to take this one?

and its not that far, but it was the first shot taken at game with that rifle other than 1 groundhog
RR

Topgun 3006

This guy reminds me of the member that was talking about off handing 2 or 3 shots and was good to go hunting if he could hit a pie plate, LOL! He just couldn't understand where all of us were coming from when we were saying we wouldn't own a rifle that couldn't shoot MOA or better. Now this guy in one sentence is talking about shooting the atrium and the next sentence is saying he's good to go with a rifle that is lucky to shoot 3" groups. Yikes!!!

super_hunt54

RR, that there looks like one of them little ole Florida dogs, I mean deer wut you shooting them liluns fer? I know they grow them a little bigger in WV!