What is Grace?

[IL_ray_phillips]

I have been over grace before but I am going to do it again and break it down further in different post. Some think that grace is a free gift from God that gives them unlimited hail marry with sin they are of which this scriptures speaks of:
Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
What is an ungodly man? Would it be a man who doesnt keep the commands of God? So you have men who dont keep the commands of God turning the grace of god into lasciviousness. What does the word turning and the word lasciviousness mean?
Turning:
metatithēmi
1) to transpose (two things, one of which is put in place of the other)
a) to transfer
b) to change

Lasciviousness:
1) unbridled lust, excess, licentiousness, lasciviousness, wantonness, outrageousness, shamelessness, insolence
So men who dont obey God's commands are replacing or changing grace into something sinful! By teaching grace allows you to remain in your sins you have denied what Jesus died to provide you. A way out of your sins! When you have rejected what Jesus died to provide you find yourself here!
1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
These people are liars! They denieth that Jesus is the Christ! How do I figure? Look at the word denieth in the greek!
arneomai
1) to deny
2) to deny someone
a) to deny one's self
1) to disregard his own interests or to prove false to himself
2) act entirely unlike himself
3) to deny, abnegate, abjure
4) not to accept, to reject, to refuse something offered
They reject what Christ did for them. He died to give them the grace to overcome sin and they choose not to accept it and justify their sins by making it unmeritted favor!

So now we have to define grace. I am going to show you several scriptures that back that grace is power from God. Then I am going to show you how you get grace and what it is used for!
2Cr 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
Here we are given the definition of grace! It is coming from the mouth of Jesus not my mouth! He is talking with Paul who is struggling with his thorn. A messenger of satan! A temptation that will not go away! He is pleading with Jesus to take it away so he doesnt have to suffer fighting off the temptation! Then Jesus says it!!!!!!! "MY GRACE IS SUFFICIENT FOR THEE: FOR MY STRENGTH IS MADE PERFECT IN WEAKNESS." Jesus told him when he is weak and temptation is upon him his grace or his strength is made perfect and is all Paul needs to overcome. Jesus uses Grace and strength synounomusly. They are one in the same! Then Paul says he gladly take on the infirmities thrown at him so the Power of Christ may rest upon him. He uses Power for the word Grace! Here are a few more scriptures that show Grace is power not unmeritted favor or whitewash to make you feel secure in your sin! Anywhere in the Word you see grace see if power from God doesnt fit more approapriately than unmeritted favor!
Act 4:33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
Eph 3:7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

Page #2 Where do we get Grace?

[IL_ray_phillips]

Where do we get grace?
1Pe 1:13¶Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
We have to break this scripture down! So we know that grace is power! We see that it is going to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ! How is Jesus Christ revealed to us?
We have to look at several things. First what the word revelation means!
apokalypsis
1) laying bare, making naked
2) a disclosure of truth, instruction
a) concerning things before unknown
b) used of events by which things or states or persons hitherto withdrawn from view are made visible to all
3) manifestation, appearance
A disclosure of truth or instruction. Then we have to look at who Jesus Christ is!
Jhn 1:14¶And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
The Word was made flesh! Jesus is the Word of God! He is full of grace(Gods Power) and truth(The spirit of God).
1Jo 5:6¶This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
Jesus is the Word of God!
Rev 19:11¶And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. Rev 19:12 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
So we are given grace as the truth of the Word of God is opened unto us! So then we have to know how to get the word opened to us!
Jhn 14:21Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."
We have to know the commands of God and obey them! Then he will show us his truths of the Word! If we obey his commands we will be loved by the father and the son and they will live in us! Then we have eternal life!
1Jo 5:20
We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true-even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.
Jhn 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
If we have eternal life we have God and Jesus within us. We have the truth of the Word inside us stearing our every move in holiness not in sin!
Ok! Now we know what grace is and how to get it but what is is used for?
Hbr 4:16Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.
We have to break this one way down! How do we approach the throne of Grace with confidence? How can we go before God?
1Jo 3:21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, [then] have we confidence toward God.
1Jo 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
We have to have a heart that does not condemn us to go before God. So if you are walking in sin God does not hear you!!!! How do we have a guilt free heart. We have to obey his commandments and do things that are pleasing in his sight! Is claiming to be a christian and surfing porn pleasing in his sight. Is claiming to be a christian and telling people its part of the process to sin until the end pleasing to his sight? Does sin cause conviction of the heart or does it set it free from guilt?
O.K we see that if we come before God with a repented heat, humbled to the Word of God, willing to be changed, he will empower us when we are attacked by messangers of satan! That is what grace is for! To help us in a time of need! Need more proof!
1Cr 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].
He will not allow you to be tempted more than you can bear and make a way for you to escape it. How?
GRACE! Jesus was full of Grace! He was tempted for 40 days and resisted. Jesus was a man just as you and I! Thus no temptation has taken you but such as is common to man! Through his death on the cross he has made a way through grace for you to overcome sin thus leaving you no excuse for sin!

I want to make something clear. Many mistake what I say about perfection. I have never said you have to be perfect to have life. Not the case. Perfection is possible! Lets look at this scripture!
Mat 19:16¶And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me.A man asked Jesus what he must do to have eternal life! Jesus told him. "if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." The man goes on to ask which ones and Jesus anwsers with a handful of the ten commandments. The guys says I have kept these what else to I need to do? Then Jesus says, "if thou wilt be perfect" It is possible to have life without being perfect. Then you get into the glories of God! Do you want to settle for the courtyard or do you want the holy of holies? If you want to be perfect you must give it all and follow the Jesus in truth which is the Word of God! This teaching of Jesus caused the disciples ask who could be saved? Jesus anwsered with man it is impossible but with God all things are possible. We have to let go of ourselves and use grace or the power of God to obtain it!

[DaveH]

Some think that grace is a free gift from God . . .

It IS . . . by definition. Grace IS a gift.

. . . that gives them unlimited hail marry with sin

NO ONE on this forum has EVER claimed that. God sees His genuinely SAVED Christian sons (and daughters) as sinless because of what Christ did for us on the cross. That said, 1 John 1:8-9 and Romans 7 show us we aren't going to be living absolutely sinless lives following salvation although THAT IS THE GOAL. True saving faith makes us a new creation in Christ and we are to be striving to live in God's will and living obediently to His calling. If you truly believe that you are living a sinless, perfect life, then you would be only the 2nd one to do this . . . Christ being the first.

[IL_ray_phillips]

Originally Posted by DaveH

It IS . . . by definition. Grace IS a gift.



NO ONE on this forum has EVER claimed that. God sees His genuinely SAVED Christian sons (and daughters) as sinless because of what Christ did for us on the cross. That said, 1 John 1:8-9 and Romans 7 show us we aren't going to be living absolutely sinless lives following salvation although THAT IS THE GOAL. True saving faith makes us a new creation in Christ and we are to be striving to live in God's will and living obediently to His calling. If you truly believe that you are living a sinless, perfect life, then you would be only the 2nd one to do this . . . Christ being the first.

You are correct grace is a free gift from God! It is not earned through works! We receive it when we realize that it is only by his power(grace) that we can overcome this world. Then we one by one put off our fleshly nature and sins becoming holy. When the Word of God that is sharper than a 2 edged sword has split every joint and marrow seeking out our sins in which we repent and do no more by his power we become born again. Free of spot or blemish. Washed in the blood of the lamb. I have sinned many times and am still in the process of being born again. But I have overcome many sins and will not return to them. I know several who have overcome their sins and sin no more. They cant sin because the seed remains in them. I guarntee you there are those who have overcome their sins! Is it alot of people? No! Jesus wouldnt have said narrow is the gate and there are few that find it. It can be done and must be done to have life. It is a struggle and is not easy! The more you submit to God the more of his truths he will reveal to you in his Word!
1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
When have I said I have never sinned and led a perfect life? I have always said I sinned in my life! Where does this say that if we say we dont sin anymore we lie? Where in the Word does it says that if we say we turn from our sins we lie?
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Most only see part of the scriptures. As here the fleshly eye likes to just see the words " forgive us." They dont see the part of cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we confess or repent which is not a matter of words but action and a state of the heart. He will forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. What is he doing by cleansing us from all unrighteousness? He is purging out sin and empowering us with grace to not fall to that sin again!

You do not understand Romans 7! We have to look at these scriptures to understand it. There are 2 laws at work!
Mat 19:17"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."
Then Jesus says!
Mat 19:21Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
You can have life by obeying the commandments! The law of God. Its the only way to have life! Not my words but Jesus from above in the scripture! You can have life more abundant in heaven by laying it all down and following Jesus as seen in 21. As seen by Paul here: He was keeping the law with zeal! But knowing and following Christ was worth giving everything he had in life so he would be found in him! When will he be found in him?
Phl 3:6as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for legalistic righteousness, faultless.
Phl 3:7But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ.
Phl 3:8What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ
Phl 3:9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ-the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith.
One of these is done in the flesh and one in the spirit. If you choose to walk in the spirit you walk with the power of God. In romans 7 Paul gives us an example of how satan wages war on our members. We know that we shouldnt do things that are sinful because we have the commandments written in our hearts. When we do them we know we are sinful but cannot control it. Then we see the words that everyone wants not to see. Paul says "who will save me?" "THANKS BE TO GOD THROUGH JESUS CHRIST" Jesus is going to save him through grace! It doesnt say he continues to fall to it! It says he is saved from it! He thanks God for it!
Paul says when he walks in the flesh he is a slave to the law of sin. He obeys the commands!
When he is in the spirit he is empowerd by God grace when he is weak! He is empowerd to overcome sin and become perfect when he cant do it!
Rom 7:12So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.
Mat 5:17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
Mat 5:18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
Jesus didnt come to do away with the law and commands he come to give us the grace(power) to carry us though them!

Where in Romans 7 does it say this? I have never read this anywhere in the scripture!
God sees His genuinely SAVED Christian sons (and daughters) as sinless because of what Christ did for us on the cross

Here is the genuinely saved Christian sons and daughters of God!
1Jo 3:9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.
1Jo 3:10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
Jhn 3:3In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. [fn]"

[Snooky]

Dave; Look at your post again.
God sees His genuinely SAVED Christian sons (and daughters) as sinless because of what Christ did for us on the cross.

Here you say sinlessness is because of what Christ did. YOU are CORRECT. Leave it there, in the hands of God and his grace. Don't turn and make Gods Grace stand upon the works of men!!

Quote;
1 John 1:8-9 and Romans 7 show us we aren't going to be living absolutely sinless lives following salvation although THAT IS THE GOAL.

Dave, You are mixing the Grace of God with the Works of men. Either we stand upon our abibities, and save ourselves by our good works, OR we stand fast in the Liberty where with Christ hath made us free.

[DaveH]

Originally Posted by Snooky

Dave; Look at your post again.
God sees His genuinely SAVED Christian sons (and daughters) as sinless because of what Christ did for us on the cross.

Here you say sinlessness is because of what Christ did. YOU are CORRECT. Leave it there, in the hands of God and his grace. Don't turn and make Gods Grace stand upon the works of men!!

Quote;
1 John 1:8-9 and Romans 7 show us we aren't going to be living absolutely sinless lives following salvation although THAT IS THE GOAL.

Dave, You are mixing the Grace of God with the Works of men. Either we stand upon our abibities, and save ourselves by our good works, OR we stand fast in the Liberty where with Christ hath made us free.

Snooky, we are in agreement. I completely agree with everything you said here. There may be some misunderstanding on one or both of our parts, but I have no conflict with your post.

[DaveH]

1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
When have I said I have never sinned and led a perfect life? I have always said I sinned in my life! Where does this say that if we say we dont sin anymore we lie? Where in the Word does it says that if we say we turn from our sins we lie?

Read the verse again . . . it's pretty clear.

You do not understand Romans 7! We have to look at these scriptures to understand it.

or these . . .
Romans 7:
14 For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am of the flesh, sold into slavery under sin.* 15I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16Now if I do what I do not want, I agree that the law is good. 17But in fact it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. 19For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do. 20Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me.
21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do what is good, evil lies close at hand. 22For I delight in the law of God in my inmost self, 23but I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind, making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24Wretched man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with my mind I am a slave to the law of God, but with my flesh I am a slave to the law of sin.


NONE of those words are mine. The highlighted parts are my emphasis, but I could have just as easily highlighted the entire passage.

[

Where in Romans 7 does it say this? I have never read this anywhere in the scripture!
God sees His genuinely SAVED Christian sons (and daughters) as sinless because of what Christ did for us on the cross

Here's just one of the many passages you missed that expresses this thought. AT SALVATION, God forgives us of ALL of our sins, NOT MOST of them, ALL of them. Christ's death on the cross paid for our sins in full, so it's incomprehendible that you've never seen a scripture indicating this most basic premise of scripture.
Hebrews 10:17:
17And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

I have sinned many times and am still in the process of being born again.

If I were you, I would be worried that Christ might call us home anytime soon since you aren't quite perfect yet. AND . . . I seriously doubt that anyone you've ever met or heard of - other than Jesus - is currently living a perfect sinless life (refer again to 1 John 1:8). You may not see any outward sign, but thoughts count and it's hard to find many people who enjoy sharing traffic snarls, being victims, lust, jealosy, pride, etc. In fact, if they claim to be perfect, THAT in and of itself is pride . . . which is sin.

[IL_ray_phillips]

Originally Posted by DaveH

Read the verse again . . . it's pretty clear.

or these . . .
Romans 7:
14 For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am of the flesh, sold into slavery under sin.* 15I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16Now if I do what I do not want, I agree that the law is good. 17But in fact it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. 19For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do. 20Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me.
21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do what is good, evil lies close at hand. 22For I delight in the law of God in my inmost self, 23but I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind, making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24Wretched man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with my mind I am a slave to the law of God, but with my flesh I am a slave to the law of sin.


NONE of those words are mine. The highlighted parts are my emphasis, but I could have just as easily highlighted the entire passage.

[Here's just one of the many passages you missed that expresses this thought. AT SALVATION, God forgives us of ALL of our sins, NOT MOST of them, ALL of them. Christ's death on the cross paid for our sins in full, so it's incomprehendible that you've never seen a scripture indicating this most basic premise of scripture.
Hebrews 10:17:
17And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.


If I were you, I would be worried that Christ might call us home anytime soon since you aren't quite perfect yet. AND . . . I seriously doubt that anyone you've ever met or heard of - other than Jesus - is currently living a perfect sinless life (refer again to 1 John 1:8). You may not see any outward sign, but thoughts count and it's hard to find many people who enjoy sharing traffic snarls, being victims, lust, jealosy, pride, etc. In fact, if they claim to be perfect, THAT in and of itself is pride . . . which is sin.

And once again you forget to highlight the whole point of what Paul Wrote! You highlighted your agenda the wretched man you are. But you left out the point that through Jesus Christ he will be rescued from his body of death or his flesh or his sin! That was his point! Jesus came to do what the law couldnt. Make people holy! The law makes us conscience of sin and the law of God gives us the power through Christ to keep the law!
24Wretched man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!

In Hebrews 10:17 you are also working for the agenda of Balaam. Yes the sins are forgiven and will be remembered no more. But who is he talking to. Its just several vs prior.
Hbr 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Who are them that are sanctified! I guarntee you its not those living in sin! Then several vs down from 17 it says this!
Hbr 10:26¶For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Hbr 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
So after you know Jesus died for your sins and you wilfully sin after knowing the truth there is no more sacrifice only expectation of judgement!
Show me where it says the person who wilfully lives in sin at the end they will be forgiven because Jesus died for them. You cant! Its only those who are obedient and change that are forgiven!

1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
No
ou
1) no, not; in direct questions expecting an affirmative answer

Not
ou
1) no, not; in direct questions expecting an affirmative answer

Same hebrew for no and not! Mis-transliteration by the agenda of the translator. Sorry! Doesnt say you will continue in sin and no where in the word does it say you cant turn from it. Says a whole bunch to turn from it though!

[Snooky]

Some time the best way to see what something is, is to see what it is not.
The 1st thing Grace is not is an excuse to continue to be a sinner. Grace isn't a bandade, or a cosmetic to camoflage or someway hide the dreaded curse of sin within the body. Grace isn't a substitute for cleansing or remission of sin. Grace isn't an alternate route to the strait and narrow pathway.
So what then is Grace? Is Grace in itself salvation? NO! The Grace of God BRINGETH salvation! The Grace of God is the vehicle that brings "The Truth" by which one may receive salvation. It is not in man that walketh to direct his steps, the steps of a good man is ordered (guided, directed, controlled, ect.) of the Lord. Ye shall KNOW the TRUTH, and the truth shall set you free. He who the Son sets free is free in deed. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my pathway. The Grace of God is the true light that now shineth. The Grace of God TEACHES us how to live! Not only does it teach us how to live Holy (be ye holy for I am Holy) righteously (that the righteousness of God may be fulfilled in us) and Godly (partakers of his devine nature) in this present word. Gods Grace is sufficient for every trail, test, temptation, ect. that would be encountered along lifes journey. Gods Grace gives one power to become the sons of God. Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit sayeth the Lord. Not of works least any man might boost. One is a total failure in himself, but he is more than a conqueror through him. Gods saving grace is sufficent.
Gods saving Grace will never suffer one to be tempted above that which he is able, but with EVERY temptation make a way of escape.
Walking in the light of Gods grace IS NOT HARD. Gods yoke is easy and his burden is light. It is the way of the transgressor that is hard! Gods saving Grace fills one with power to overcome. When one is in Gods Grace, it isn't the man that lives, but Christ who liveth in him. God then fights his battles, and GIVES him the victory.
Why anyone would withstand and refuse the Spirit which helpeth our oft enfirmities, and try to fight the battle against sin and the devil alone, without the power of Gods Grace, is beyond my comprehesion.
Grace is the agent of victory over sin. Grace is what Calvary was all about.

[DaveH]

1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
No
ou
1) no, not; in direct questions expecting an affirmative answer

Not
ou
1) no, not; in direct questions expecting an affirmative answer

Same hebrew for no and not! Mis-transliteration by the agenda of the translator. Sorry! Doesnt say you will continue in sin and no where in the word does it say you cant turn from it. Says a whole bunch to turn from it though!

Oh, I see. If you don't agree with the Bible, then claim that the verse that clearly shows you the truth, is agenda driven and therefor wrong. Never mind the fact that nearly everyone here - probably including you - reads this version or one of the many others WHICH ALL SAY THE SAME THING. They must ALL be wrong and ALL of their authors have the same agenda huh?

And I want to ask you this again since you didn't respond to it. According to your claims, since you admitted that you still sin, aren't you in the same boat as all the others you're bashing on here for not living the perfect life you yourself have not attained? Wouldn't you then be left out if Christ were to return right now . . . or right after your next sin but before you confessed it? It must be awful to live in fear that you might sin, lose your salvation and not confess it and get saved all over again before Christ comes to call you home. Isn't that what you're really saying?