What is Grace?

[DaveH]

I see the same theme being repeated over and over by some. "You cannot sin anymore following salvation, if you want to stay saved." NOTE: I put quotes around it - it's not a quote, but paraphrases the thought. The same people telling us this admit to not being perfect themselves and (this IS a quote) stated,

Never said you have to be perfect brother. I am not perfect but I am striving to be.

You can't have it both ways. Either you have to be perfect and never sin again - EVER. Or, you can admit that NONE of us is perfect in EVERY thought, word and deed, 100% all the time, every time without fail. Since you admit to sinning - like the rest of us - even though we have the power of the Holy Spirit, then why do you go to such great lengths stating that we cannot sin and have any hope of Heaven? Your view leaves no room for God's grace and the forgiveness that we all continue to need following salvation. I've been emphatic in my statements, that it isn't a license to sin by any means. Nothing of the sort, but to demand absolute sinlessness following salvation EVEN THOUGH IT'S THE GOAL wasn't obtained even by Paul. The crowds I read about in Revelation wouldn't be nearly that size going by the "perfection" dogma. Only Jesus would be there.

[IL_ray_phillips]

Originally Posted by Chuck7

"I am not perfect but I am striving to be."
I;;. Ray.

Ray,
this is what I have l been saying all along..and yet you have taken great pleasure in "openly rebuking me that others may fear." When preaching one must look at the entire book..not one verse isolated..

I never openly rebuked you and certainly was not getting pleasure from being attacked for stating what I have inside me. I simply provided scripture to back everything I stated and the truth backed you into a corner. Not me! The truth will make people fear because it makes them understand they cant be double minded and live a life of sin and expect to be saved. Never in any of my post have I said you have to be perfect to be saved. I stated a scriptural fact that it is possible! I did state you have to be born again to see heaven and if you are born again you will not sin and that is a scriptural fact!
Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
You will not make lies against me! I have never isolated a scripture to bring fourth the truth! Show me a post that proves I isolate scripture. Most say they like the way I use so much scripture. I use the whole Word of God, new and old testiment. It is flawless and undivided! It is perfect and all fits together. Not you Chuck but some try to divide what God has put together. That is foolish and ignorant. I will not even associate with a person like that. I know what people are going to say, "thats not very christian like"! But it is very scriptural!
2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
All scripute is given to us from God and is profitable!
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Another example of we can be perfect!

1Cr 15:33Do not be misled: "Bad company corrupts good character."
1Cr 15:34Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God-I say this to your shame.
1Pe 2:15
For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men.
2Pe 3:16
He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
I tell it how it is Chuck! If you disagree with me that is fine. If someone else disagrees with me that is fine. That is free will.
2Cr 4:2Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
This is what I do Chuck! I post all in brohterly love. Many will say bull, how do you figure. I tell you that sin is sin and leads to death. Not to do it and dont hide in a lie saying you are saved even though you sin. I tell you turn away from your sin be born again and live for righteousness. This plants a good seed in your consience that is commendable in sight of God. If I tell you," Chuck, if you mess up and sin its alright. Jesus died you will be forgiven". That makes it easy and excusable to sin! That is not a good seed to plant and God will not commend me on that. That is not brotherly love. Love has different definitions. Brotherly love is not causing your brother to stumble or doing something that makes him think he doesnt have to obey the Word of God. I am not going to tell you its ok if you sin. Then if you go sin thinking its ok if I sin because I will be forgiven. I just made you stumble. I am not going to send you a dirty picture causing you to fall into a trap of porn addiction causing you to stumble, I am not going to tell you its ok to consume alcohol then you become an alcoholic and I have caused you to stumble.
1Cr 10:32Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God-

Mat 18:6But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
Luk 17:1Jesus said to his disciples: "Things that cause people to sin are bound to come, but woe to that person through whom they come.
Yes you are right Chuck! You called me a zealous christian. I am zealous and I thank God for it!

[Snooky]

I see the same theme being repeated over and over by some. "You cannot sin anymore following salvation, if you want to stay saved." NOTE: I put quotes around it - it's not a quote, but paraphrases the thought. The same people telling us this admit to not being perfect themselves and (this IS a quote) stated.


Dave; I have pretty much said these words but there is something that needs to be addressed that is slipping by unseen it appears.
One must make a decision to sin after salvation if the scripture concerning Gods keeping power is correct. If Jesus "fulfilled the requirement for sin". If Jesus destroyed the "yoke of bondage". If Jesus "overcame all the works of the enemy". If Jesus gives us power over all the works of the adversary". If His seed remaineth in us, we cannot sin. However God doesn't force one to become saved against his will, neither does he force one to remain saved if he should so choose to commit a transgression.
Here is where IMO most fail to grasp the concept of perfection. There is an advocate! This advocate isn't in place for those who have never know God, but for the ones who have become partakers of the gift of eternal life. Now there is a sin unto death, don't pray about that sin, but if you sin in any other way, the advocate is there to make intercession for the wayward, prodigal. The blood spilled back on Calvary has not lost its power. The High Priest in the Heavenly Tabernacle will sprinkel the wayward member with that soul cleansing blood and those sins will no longer be remembered, nor charged against him.
There is a connection here with the biblical practice of washing feet. He is cleansed, and need not be washed again, save for his feet. There is one water baptism, and an advocate afterwards. Ye are complete in him.
Perfection is achieved when one obeys God. Sin is when one rebells against God in some measure. Every deed, every act, every thought, is either sinless, or sinful. Every step is either ordered of God, or is taken contrary to Gods direction.
How are works MADE perfect? By Faith! We as children of Abraham, do the works of Abraham. Was Abrahams works perfect 100% of the time? NO, But Abraham BELIEVED God! Here is a key, And because Abraham believed, and had faith in God, IT WAS IMPUTED unto him for righteousness. The woman taken in the act of adultry, stood before the advocate who said, neither do I comdem you, go and sin no more. Did she walk away an adultress? Or did she walk away in sinless perfection? No doubt she was brought unto him a sinner. We are looking at an ensample given for our learning and admonition. The adultreous church is before the advocate as you read this, Jesus is pronouncing his verdict now. What condition is the church in?
That he might present it unto himself, a glorious church, not having spot, wrinkle, or any such thing.

[IL_ray_phillips]

Originally Posted by DaveH

I see the same theme being repeated over and over by some. "You cannot sin anymore following salvation, if you want to stay saved." NOTE: I put quotes around it - it's not a quote, but paraphrases the thought. The same people telling us this admit to not being perfect themselves and (this IS a quote) stated,

You can't have it both ways. Either you have to be perfect and never sin again - EVER. Or, you can admit that NONE of us is perfect in EVERY thought, word and deed, 100% all the time, every time without fail. Since you admit to sinning - like the rest of us - even though we have the power of the Holy Spirit, then why do you go to such great lengths stating that we cannot sin and have any hope of Heaven? Your view leaves no room for God's grace and the forgiveness that we all continue to need following salvation. I've been emphatic in my statements, that it isn't a license to sin by any means. Nothing of the sort, but to demand absolute sinlessness following salvation EVEN THOUGH IT'S THE GOAL wasn't obtained even by Paul. The crowds I read about in Revelation wouldn't be nearly that size going by the "perfection" dogma. Only Jesus would be there.

You only see what your flesh wants you to see! Being without sin doenst make you perfect! There is plenty more after you turn from sin. Turning from sin is just one of the basic prinicple of the oracles of God! When you are in the basic principles or the foundation of your spiritual temple you are on milk. If you are on milk you are unskilled in the Word or not able to see the truth of it. The more of you submit to God and put away sin the more of the truth you will see. You say that no one can be right 100% percent of the time in thought and actions but those who are on the meat and excercise their senses constatly to discern good and evil will tell you differently.
Hbr 5:12¶For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
Hbr 5:13 For every one that useth milk [is] unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
Hbr 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, [even] those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.


Hbr 6:1¶Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Is this just a suggestion? We are to leave the first principles of Christ and move onto perfection. What is the first thing we are to do to accomplish that? Stop repenting from sin all the time!
I leave plenty of room for Gods grace but I dont make whitewash out of Gods grace. Its power to overcome your sins not power to be forgiven when you commit them. I have overcome many. I have felt the power of God help me through the struggle of an addiction when I couldnt get threw it on my own. That is grace!
You need to re-think your whole crowds in revelation thought! Yes there is a great multitude. But only 144,000 are sealed!
Rev 7:13Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes-who are they, and where did they come from?"
Rev 7:14I answered, "Sir, you know." And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
The great multitude is those who come out of the great tribulation. But what about the rapture and not being on earth for tribulation? There is a lot of false bull being taught! These are those who near the end will hear the truth of God and turn from their sin being obedient. Cleansing themselves with the washing of the water of the Word.
Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

I always use scriputre to back what I post!
You have still not showed me scripture that confirms we cannot be perfect!
You have not showed me scripture that says we are stuck in sin until the end! Romans 7 is out also! You will just distort the meaning of it and leave out the part where Paul thanks God because Jesus will deliver him from his sinful nature.
One final thought. If we dont have to put off our sin then why did Jesus say this?
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
You have been deceived by a false prophet and sin has made you blind!

[DaveH]

Never in any of my post have I said you have to be perfect to be saved. I stated a scriptural fact that it is possible! I did state you have to be born again to see heaven and if you are born again you will not sin and that is a scriptural fact!

This is from your post near the top of this page. Three sentences [together] where you completely contradict yourself. First, again you admit that you can sin. And then, you immediately point out that you cannot sin and see Heaven. As I said in my last post, you can't have it both ways. Either you can sin or you can't. It isn't BOTH.

[DaveH]

Being without sin doenst make you perfect!

This whole thread is about this topic - sin. In THAT context, you would be perfect. Of course, spiritual growth is important, but that's a whole 'nother topic.

You have still not showed me scripture that confirms we cannot be perfect!
You have not showed me scripture that says we are stuck in sin until the end! Romans 7 is out also! You will just distort the meaning of it and leave out the part where Paul thanks God because Jesus will deliver him from his sinful nature.

You just lied - and that is sinful. YOU KNOW QUITE WELL that I provided scriptures such as 1 John 1:8 and Romans 7 as proof. To claim otherwise is sinful. To discount Romans 7 because you wish to read the part you want and dismiss Paul's struggles with sin is dishonest. And you didn't even mention 1 John 1:8-9. I remember you stating that the translaters had "an agenda" when they wrote it in a way that blows your argument out of the water. I pointed out that it's been translated many times by many different translaters and over large spans of time. They ALL said it the same way so I guess they ALL had the same agenda and God allowed it to be carried over into all the translations. You can obviously see the fallacy of your logic here, but you chose to close your eyes to this verse because it destroys your viewpoint. You admit to sinning yourself, claim that it's possible and immediately assert that anyone who does so will not enter Heaven. Like I said, you can't have it both ways

[IL_ray_phillips]

Originally Posted by DaveH

This is from your post near the top of this page. Three sentences [together] where you completely contradict yourself. First, again you admit that you can sin. And then, you immediately point out that you cannot sin and see Heaven. As I said in my last post, you can't have it both ways. Either you can sin or you can't. It isn't BOTH.

You need to talk to Jesus about it! He said it not me. If you are born of God you wont sin! Period! Read the scripture a couple hundred times and maybe it will sink in!
1Jo 3:9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.
1Jo 2:4
The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

You can be saved without being perfect their is a difference.
Being saved! Obeyed the commands and without sin!
Mat 19:16Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"
Mat 19:17"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."

Being perfect! Still without sin just giving your mind, heart and soul to God.
Mat 19:20"All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?"
Mat 19:21Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
Do you see there is a difference!

[IL_ray_phillips]

Originally Posted by DaveH

This whole thread is about this topic - sin. In THAT context, you would be perfect. Of course, spiritual growth is important, but that's a whole 'nother topic.



You just lied - and that is sinful. YOU KNOW QUITE WELL that I provided scriptures such as 1 John 1:8 and Romans 7 as proof. To claim otherwise is sinful. To discount Romans 7 because you wish to read the part you want and dismiss Paul's struggles with sin is dishonest. And you didn't even mention 1 John 1:8-9. I remember you stating that the translaters had "an agenda" when they wrote it in a way that blows your argument out of the water. I pointed out that it's been translated many times by many different translaters and over large spans of time. They ALL said it the same way so I guess they ALL had the same agenda and God allowed it to be carried over into all the translations. You can obviously see the fallacy of your logic here, but you chose to close your eyes to this verse because it destroys your viewpoint. You admit to sinning yourself, claim that it's possible and immediately assert that anyone who does so will not enter Heaven. Like I said, you can't have it both ways

Oh I will not discount that paul struggled with sin but he is delivered from it by the power of God. I will not discount the grace of God and the ability to not fall to that sin. 1 John does not say you are stuck in your sin. It says if you say you have not sinned you are a liar! Big difference!

[DaveH]

Your quote:

If you are born of God you wont sin! Period!

Your quote:

I have always said I sinned in my life!

When Christ returns, where will that leave you?

[IL_ray_phillips]

Originally Posted by DaveH

Your quote:


Your quote:


When Christ returns, where will that leave you?

Meaning I have sinned in my life not that I continually do it and will until the return of Christ.
If I am in sin at the return of Christ I will be judged to the lake of fire!