If anyone else wants to chime in, I'd like to hear it. I won't hold my breath though--been down this road before. Those 'ol "hard" questions never seem to get much of a straight answer.
Chad
LOL.
I got into this a little late.
Concerning your question LBR... Bro. Chuck answered it. Just because he didnt give you an answer that fits your beliefs doesnt mean that its not straight, he was answering from the heart and you blasted him. That sounds a little judgemental to me.
One thing I've learned since I've been reading and commenting on this board is that for most members that post on here... its their way or no way. I have been blasted many times, shut down and told I was wrong, that doesnt hinder my belief though. Its kinda like the old saying... opinions are like butts, we all have one and they all stink.
So instead of asking him to answer it the way you see it should be answered... reword your question. Just a thought.
Oh, Salvation is free to anyone that so choses. There is no work involved with receiving salvation. Work comes after salvation... for instense pressing to finish the race as Paul says it. Its a believers duty to WORK on maturing in the Lord and the Word of God. Weaning ourselves off of the milk of the Word and start digesting the meat of the Word.
Bro. Chuck... I loved your post... Amen and Amen! If I may add one thing to it, its in Colossians I think... As we have received Christ Jesus, so walk in Him. How did we receive Christ Jesus?... IN LOVE! I love the word "Grace" and to me it goes hand in hand with Love! God saved us by "Grace" because He Loves us. This Grace is to ... what the Bible calls a "Whosoever"... Whosoever shall call upon the Lord shall be saved. Who is a "whosoever"? Uhhh, I think that means whosoever! I was a whosoever once now I am a child of the King.
Concerning your question LBR... Bro. Chuck answered it. Just because he didnt give you an answer that fits your beliefs doesnt mean that its not straight, he was answering from the heart and you blasted him. That sounds a little judgemental to me.
I don't doubt Chuck answered from the heart. Again, that's not the point. I prefer a scriptural answer. That is the only answer that matters. Just because an answer comes from the heart doesn't mean it's accurate--again, refer to the story of Saul, before he became the apostle Paul.
Quote:
Oh, Salvation is free to anyone that so choses.
That can't be. Choosing requires us to make a concious decision. We can't do that, because if we do something it's a "work".
Say we make an exception here, and say that even though we have to do something (make a concious decision) it's not really a work. Is that all we do? Just decide "I want to be saved" ? Or is there more to it than that? How can we make that decision, unless we've made other concious decisions and performed certain physical acts.....like hear, believe, and repent (turn away from evil)?
Right back to my point. We have to follow the directions God gave us. Setting one of those instructions aside and pinning the word "work" to it doesn't change a thing, it's just an attempt to make God's Word fit the agenda and traditions of man.
Anyone care to just give a straight (scriptural) answer to the questions?
__________________ If con is the opposite of pro, is Congress the opposite of progress?
I can see where I should have been clearer. My mistake. What I meant is I'm asking for specific answers, not vague generalities that don't begin to address the actual questions I asked. That's like someone asking "what must I do to be saved?" and you say "Look in the Bible. There, I answered your question." You did, but you know you really didn't.
Romans 9 is not an answer to all the questions I asked. Romans 9 does not negate other verses in the Bible that indicate that salvation is free for all who will accept it.
You said you answered the questions. No, you didn't. You said Romans 9 is the answer. Again, no it isn't. Romans 9 mentions specifically those God used for His purpose. Again, my Bible contains a lot more than just Romans 9. Does that mean I don't believe Romans 9? Not at all--but if you just take Romans 9 without putting it into context, you get the wrong idea.
Bottom line, we have a choice, or we don't. Either Grace is for all, or it isn't. If it is for all, and there's nothing we do to recieve it, then all are saved and trying to bring someone to Christ is pointless--they are all already there, no matter what they do.
If only the "elect" can be saved, then it's still pointelss. The saved will be saved, the lost will be lost, regardless of what anyone does. Nothing you or I or anyone else can do to change it.
If God's Grace is extended to all that will OBEY His instructions, and we aren't robots or puppets and God is not a respecter of persons, that is the only reason to follow Christ's command to take the Gospel to the world.
I'm not posting thinking that any regulars here will change their minds--been there, done that. Hopefully someone just lurking will have an open mind and search for themselves.
__________________ If con is the opposite of pro, is Congress the opposite of progress?
Thank you Chuck, I've really enjoyed reading this thread! I'm sure others have been blessed by reading it also. You and LBR have done a good job discussion grace and revealing many wonderful things of God! I've blessed by this talk.
Works and Grace are like oil and water, They don't mix, but both are absolutely necessary for an engine to work and run! Take either out of the car engine and see how far it goes. Works is the wittness and evidence of Gods abiding Grace. There is NO GOOD works without his Grace. Gods Grace enables one to live a life exceptable unto God.
I don't have time at present to expound upon it, but will be looking hard at it when things smooth out a little.
Brethern, We all seem to major in minors. I see the results of trusting in religion here and not in the subject at hand. Religion teaches that there is none righteous, no not one. That is 100% true, but religion fails to offer a means of finding favor with God and of keeping his commandments. God makes this possible with his great gift to mankind which is his Grace which is sufficent to provide help in time of need, and carry the redeemed through every trial of faith and temptation which so easily besets us. Grace does not make excuses for failure, as Grace never fails. Men fail when they trust in religion, church groups, personal strength, ect. None has the power to overcome in his own flesh, but we are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit. The Spirit helpheth our infirmities, which is Gods Grace giving helpless man the ability to keep the victory and to overcome the works of the adversary. For by Grace are you saved, and that not of yourselves, it is THE GIFT OF GOD. Endues with power from on high! Greater is he that is in you! When the enemy would come in like a flood, The Spirit will lift up a standard against him. No weapon formed against thee shall prosper. This is Grace, not of yourselves! Through faith! not faith in self to be a servant of sin, but Faith in God to supply ALL our needs in order to fight the good fight of faith. That is Grace! The overcoming power of God, undeserved, unmerited, but granted to the believers. We are more than conquerors through him, by faith through his marvelous Grace.
Quote: "God makes this possible with his great gift to mankind which is his Grace which is sufficent to provide help in time of need, and carry the redeemed through every trial of faith and temptation which so easily besets us. Grace does not make excuses for failure, as Grace never fails."
Snooky, truer words were never spoken. I just don't understand why when people hear the word grace, they fail to understand that this grace makes us overcomers and conquerers. Grace is never an excuse for sin, it is however, the cure.
Blessings.....Pastorjim
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Mere religion is just hanging around the cross.......True Christianity is getting on the cross.
For by Grace are you saved, and that not of yourselves, it is THE GIFT OF GOD.
Actually the Bible says by grace through faith we are saved. Ephesians 2:8
James says faith without works is dead. James 2:20
Can dead faith do anything? No.
The same questions I've asked countless times keep coming back up with no answers.
To be saved, do we do something, or do we do absolutely nothing? It can't be both--it has to be one or the other.
If we do something, what makes one act of obedience that requires our concious participation a work, while another act of obedience that requires our concious participation is not a work?
If we do nothing--whether you believe that all are saved regardless, or a chosen few are saved regardless--what's the point in posting here? Nothing you can do or say can change the fact, if that were indeed what the Bible tells us.
Finally, a new question or two. What will you say on judgement day when asked "Why did you ignore those sincere questions? By answering, you could have helped save several souls (maybe your own), but rather than set aside foolish pride, you just ignored them."
If your doctrine, or tradition, or by-laws, or preacher, or whatever tells you to ignore questions that you can't answer without contradicting what you have been taught, shouldn't that be telling you something?
__________________ If con is the opposite of pro, is Congress the opposite of progress?
Where does the Bible say one is saved, then obeys? Where is there one example where God told someone what to do, they received the promise, then they went out and obeyed? I can save you some looking--it's not there.
Can dead faith be restored? Sure, but dead faith isn't restoring itself. Dead faith can do nothing.
Can you address the questions eto? In order to be saved, do we do something, or do we do absolutely nothing? It's not a trick question. It can be easily answered with many scriptures.
Chad
__________________ If con is the opposite of pro, is Congress the opposite of progress?
