I agree with a lot of what you said Chuck, but you skipped the question. In order to recieve salvation, do we do something, or do we do absolutely nothing?
The commands to hear, believe, repent, confess, and be baptized are all listed as coming before salvation.
Was that a mistake?
Of course we are saved by Grace......through Faith. James said faith without works is dead. Can dead faith save?
Can we focus on just one verse, or just one topic, and be obeying God? Can a baker focus just on flour and oven temperature and still bake a cake? No, you have to study the whole recipie.
__________________ If con is the opposite of pro, is Congress the opposite of progress?
Seems that part of the verse gets ignored. It means a lot, and clarifies a lot, if you don't skip it.
If I obey the commands to hear,believe, repent, confess, and be baptized how is that trying to bring glory to myself? How is doing what God said to do trusting in anyone but Him? Simple--it's not.
Again, just like the two examples I gave. You are drowning and God throws you a rope. Do you deserve the glory for grabbing onto the rope, or does it belong to God for throwing it to you and dragging you to safety? Of course it belongs to God, but that doesn't change the fact that you had to grab it.
God is your grandfather, leaving you that big inheritance. It's yours to be had, no strings attached. You just have to sign the paperwork. Do you deserve the glory for signing your name? Of course not.
"...lest any man should boast." That makes it clear what kind of work is being specified here. If we gave away all we owned to the poor, or climbed a mountain, or killed a bear with a butter knife, or fasted for 40 days and nights, or prayed for 40 hours straight.......we won't obtain salvation. Those would be impressive to the world, but they aren't what God commanded. I believe that is why God commanded us to do simple things in order to recieve salvation--there's no boasting in what he told us to do.
We either do something, or we do absolutely nothing, in order to recieve salvation. Can't be both. Which do you think it is?
__________________ If con is the opposite of pro, is Congress the opposite of progress?
I can't base my salvation on my feelings, or anyone else's. I have to base it on God's word. God says "Knock, and the door will be opened. Seek, and ye shall find. Ask, and it will be given unto you." He didn't say the door will be opened, then you should knock; you will find, then you should seek, it will be given unto you, then you should ask.
Chad
__________________ If con is the opposite of pro, is Congress the opposite of progress?
This is exactly what I was talking about in my first post."Saved by grace" means that you can do no performance good enough to earn it. God, the giver of grace, is dealing with you solely on the basis of love and mercy. Salvation is a gift of God.
(Romans 11:6 KJV) And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Grace is the opposite of works. The two cannot be mixed together in any way. Even the tiniest amount of works destroys grace. Whenever works are involved then it can be said that it is no longer grace. It is 100% grace or 100% works, no mixture of the two is allowed; it is always one or the other.
(Romans 4:4-5 KJV) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. {5} But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
If you have to work for your salvation, then it would be considered a reward, something that is merited, earned or something that is owed to you. In other words, if you have to work for salvation then that would make God indebted to you; God would owe you salvation in return.
So if you want to work your way into heaven, then knock yourself out! Be my guest!
Then we must disagree, Grace is what it is unmerited and undeserved. Like I said there has been so much straying from the truth here in the last five years, that it has even convinced the very elect.
You all can go on twisting God's word to fit your own theological agendas, but as for me my friends I'll just leave it to you all.
Grace is unmerited, undeserved, unearned. That doesn't mean it can't come with conditions. If there are no conditions, then why isn't everyone everywhere saved, regardless of what they do?
I never said you can work your way to heaven. I've consistently said the opposite. And the questions I keep asking consistently get avoided.
God's grace is available to everyone--right or wrong?
If that is correct, then what is the difference in those that receive it and those that don't? If that is correct, and you can do absolutely nothing to influence whether you receive it or not, why would anyone be lost?
__________________ If con is the opposite of pro, is Congress the opposite of progress?
The only difference you and I have Chad concerning thie particuliar subject is who gets the credit for the fruit or works ..I simply give all the credit to Jesus alone..
Chuck, you obviously misunderstand my point. Who do you think I was giving the credit to? I thought I made it very clear what I believe.
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Does that mean we are earning salvation? Of course not. That is impossible. It's a gift, and was bought and paid for by Christ.
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How is doing what God said to do trusting in anyone but Him? Simple--it's not.
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Do you deserve the glory for grabbing onto the rope, or does it belong to God for throwing it to you and dragging you to safety? Of course it belongs to God,...
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Do you deserve the glory for signing your name? Of course not.
I don't know how I could be any clearer.
__________________ If con is the opposite of pro, is Congress the opposite of progress?
I have NEVER advoided your questions Chad .. The deal is ..you are not recieveing the answer I gave you.
You give a reply, but not to the question I asked. It's like me asking "Chuck, who do you think will win the Superbowl next year?" and you reply "Yeah, it does look like it might rain this afternoon, but I'm going fishing anyway". Replying is not the same as answering. Here's a list. I think they are simple questions.
What is a "work"? Is it something we must physically or conciously do? Or would it be considered something above and beyond the average or normal?
In order to recieve salvation, do we do something, or do we do absolutely nothing?
By signing your name, are you working for it or earning it? By grabbing the rope, did you work for or earn salvation from drowning?
If we do absolutely nothing (election), what is the point of posting on this board? Nothing anyone says or does can change a thing. My Bible says God is not a respecter of persons, and that the Gospel calls to all.
If I obey the commands to hear,believe, repent, confess, and be baptized how is that trying to bring glory to myself? How is doing what God said to do trusting in anyone but Him?
If there are no conditions, then why isn't everyone everywhere saved, regardless of what they do?
God's Grace is available to everyone--right or wrong?
If Grace is available to everyone, what is the difference in those that receive it and those that don't? If that is correct, and you can do absolutely nothing to influence whether you receive it or not, why would anyone be lost?
These aren't presented just to Chuck. Anyone that cares to is more than welcome to answer. If I'm wrong, straighten me out.
Chad
__________________ If con is the opposite of pro, is Congress the opposite of progress?
Where does the Bible authorize that? What's wrong with going by what the Bible says? Your feelings were miles off base when you thought I was saying the glory belonged anywhere but with Christ. Saul, before he became Paul, was persecuting Christians "even unto death". He was going with his feelings.
If I'm going to use scripture and you are going to use feelings, I guess it's a pointless discussion. I don't mean to be rude, that's just the fact of the matter. Feelings can change with the weather. The Bible remains consistent.
__________________ If con is the opposite of pro, is Congress the opposite of progress?
Scripture is scripture, feelings are feelings. Oil and water.
I didn't ask Romans 9 for the answers to my questions, I asked people, including you.
Romans 9 is a whole different study in itself. My Bible contains a lot more than Romans 9, and if I wanted to cherry-pick certain parts or verses and take them out of context, it would seem to contradict itself.
Have a good one Chuck. I don't see a point in arguing with feelings.
If anyone else wants to chime in, I'd like to hear it. I won't hold my breath though--been down this road before. Those 'ol "hard" questions never seem to get much of a straight answer.
Chad
__________________ If con is the opposite of pro, is Congress the opposite of progress?
