What is the Catholic interpretaion of Matthew 23:9? I'm really not interested in debating it, just wondering.
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"We can have no '50-50' allegiance in this country. Either a man is an American and nothing else, or he is not an American at all."-- Theodore Roosevelt
A wise man's heart is at his right hand; but a fool's heart at his left. Ecclesiasties 10:2
The last four letters in American..........I Can
The last four letters in Republican........I Can
The last four letters in Democrats.........Rats
I had to look up the references in our Bible. Apparently, in this context, "Father" refers to God. The Aramaic word Abba appears three times in the New Testament always followed by the Greek for Father. Jesus is making the point that we are to consider God as our Father, a new concept in the Scriptures. Obviously referring to one's own father or a priest does not carry the same connotation.
I think this is pretty apparent, since for many, many, generations we have referred to our own fathers as "father," and have also referred to priests as "father," with no objection. It looks like one of those words that have more than one meaning depending on context. My mom finally got married to a really great guy. He's really my stepfather but I refer to him as my father and he calls me his daughter. I also say the Our Father in church, but the meaning and my thoughts are completely not the same. (Daddy, of course is my husband.)
Remember, this is the season for wool Then you can be warm while celebrating Christmas
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Proud parents of our own "Daddy's Little Girls"
I heard Jesus He drank wine and I bet we'd get along just fine.
Be careful not to take this passage out of context. Jesus was speaking specifically of the pride of the pharisees, who loved to be called "Rabbi", "Teacher", & "Father". In the previous & following verses, Jesus warns his disciples against being called "rabbi" or "teacher" as well. He is warning them (and us) of the dangerous pride that can come from being in a position of authority, and the extent to which the pharisees had perverted their authority.
There are many instances in the Bible where Jesus Himself, as well as St. Paul, St Stephen, St. James, & St John, refer to the "elders" of the Church, both past & present, as "father".
Some references, if you'd like:
Luke 16:24
James 2:21
Romans 4:1-18
I John 2:13-14
Acts 7:1-2
I Corinthians 4:14-15
I Thessalonians 2:11
John 4:12
Acts 4:25
Romans 9:10
If one is to take the wrong interpretation of Matthew 23:9, and take the verse out of context, then the above verses would be in direct contradiction to Matthew 23:9.
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The verses given all refer to "father" as in lineage, not in a religious or spiritual manner.
Like I said though, I'm not interested in debating it. Just curious what your thoughts were.
__________________
"We can have no '50-50' allegiance in this country. Either a man is an American and nothing else, or he is not an American at all."-- Theodore Roosevelt
A wise man's heart is at his right hand; but a fool's heart at his left. Ecclesiasties 10:2
The last four letters in American..........I Can
The last four letters in Republican........I Can
The last four letters in Democrats.........Rats
The verses given all refer to "father" as in lineage, not in a religious or spiritual manner.
Like I said though, I'm not interested in debating it. Just curious what your thoughts were.
Hebrew (and Aramaic) are among those languages which, unlike English, have a limited vocabulary. Meanings of words depend therefore, heavily on context.
May The Sheep Be With You
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Proud parents of our own "Daddy's Little Girls"
I heard Jesus He drank wine and I bet we'd get along just fine.
I understand that. It doesn't change my point though--Abraham was called "father" in a patriarical sense, not in a religious or spiritual sense. I.E., grandfather, great grandfather, etc.
I personally don't see where a preacher or leader can ever earn the title in a religious or spiritual sense, and the way I understand it Christ warned against that. Even if Christ's warning was directed at a specific group, I have wondered for a long time why some groups (Catholics are the ones that come to mind) use the term the way they do.
I don't have any illusions that I'll change anyone's mind, I was just curious. I don't think I've ever had anyone try to explain it.
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"We can have no '50-50' allegiance in this country. Either a man is an American and nothing else, or he is not an American at all."-- Theodore Roosevelt
A wise man's heart is at his right hand; but a fool's heart at his left. Ecclesiasties 10:2
The last four letters in American..........I Can
The last four letters in Republican........I Can
The last four letters in Democrats.........Rats
Obviously, the Catholic view is that we don't take that as absolute. I bear that title myself and that's the key to being a priest--along with the concepts of shepherd and servant.
I don't have any commentaries with me, but I'm guessing that if you got into Matthew's head, he was seeing a situation similar to that of 1 Corinthians where the people were dividing into factions. (In 1 Corinthians the factions were based on who baptized them) God got pushed aside. Obviously, whether you have a shepherd, a priest, a pastor, father, or whatever, the point is to lead people and lift them up to God. It is quite possible in the spiritual life to
make a spiritual leader one's master rather than Christ himself. That's probably what was happening in Matthew's community.
Christians never understood that passage as an absolute prohibition against the title of father. It shows up even in the New Testament in spiritual terms. Ministry and fatherhood are linked together in the letters to Timothy.
Examples:
1 Tim 1:2- and 2 Tim 1:2-Paul looks at Timothy as his child.
Also, Philemon 10 has Paul calling himself a father to the slave Onesimus.
The earliest non-biblical Christian writings have many references to spiritual fatherhood. It's always been a part of Christian life and Christians never saw the use of the title "Father" as forbidden or prohibited by Jesus in any absolute sense.
Last edited by Father Forkhorn; 12-18-2009 at 08:15 AM.
Let me add something: this is really a question of what grace does. If you accept sacraments, even if only baptism, then you have a reference point. A sacrament in some way brings Christ into the world in a way he wasn't present before--and it happens by grace. For instance, Christ, through grace, a baptized person has Christ dwelling within ther soul. He wasn't there before because of sin, but now you have to say that somehow the person's soul was imprinted or impacted so that Christ now dwells there.
Cathooics accept ordination as a sacrament, and something similar happens in our way of thinking. The priest is impacted or imprinted in his soul in a way that changes him and allows Christ to dwell in him in a way he did not previously. Specifically, we would say he dwells within the priest in a way that allows priest to share with Jesus in the offering of the Last Supper/Sacrifice of the Cross.
What does that have to do with the title of "Father" that we give to priests like me? It's like this: Where you have the Son, you also have the Father and the Holy Spirit. The indwelling brings not only Christ, but God the Father as well. The title simply acknowledges that the priest shares in God's fatherhood and it's the relationship that he assumes toward other people--leading the people to the God who transcends everything.
I appreciate the explanation. I'm not going to pretend I agree with it, but I maintain I didn't ask to debate the point, just out of curiosity.
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"We can have no '50-50' allegiance in this country. Either a man is an American and nothing else, or he is not an American at all."-- Theodore Roosevelt
A wise man's heart is at his right hand; but a fool's heart at his left. Ecclesiasties 10:2
The last four letters in American..........I Can
The last four letters in Republican........I Can
The last four letters in Democrats.........Rats
Just Curious (Catholic question)
