Happytrigger,I started a thread to respond to your comments regarding the Mormon view of Christ and salvation. I was not mockingMormons. I wasshowing where Momon teachings and beliefsconflictwith the Bible. My comments about the Mormon view of Christ and salvationwere based on Mormon writings and teachings not gossip.I went to school with Mormons; I have sibblings who had friends in school who were Mormon; I have listened to former Mormons talk about the teachings of the Mormon church;and I have studiedthe Mormon view of Christ and salvation. One of my siblings who had Mormonfriends was always being asked by these friends to meet with the elders of their church. The response of my sibling was if our pastor was allowed tocome withthey would be glad tomeet and talk about the Mormon beliefs. They would not allow our pastor to come with so my sibling never met with the elders from that Mormon church.
The mainbook I readsomeyearsback on Mormon teachingsbelongs to a former pastor, so I do not have the book for reference. However,below is information I found online. The Mormon church does teach that belief inJoseph Smith is needed for salvation, and the Mormon view of Christ does not agree with the Bible.
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"It is because the Lord called Joseph Smith that salvation is again available to mortal men.... If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation," -Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 396, 670
There is "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God" -Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190
"I tell you, Joseph holds the keys, and none of us can get into the celestial kingdom without passing by him. We have not got rid of him, but he stands there as the sentinel, holding the keys of the kingdom of God; and there are many of them beside him. I tell you, if we get past those who have mingled with us, and know us best, and have a right to know us best, probably we can pass all other sentinels as far as it is necessary, or as far as we may desire. But I tell you, the pinch will be with those that have mingled with us, stood next to us, weighed our spirits, tried us, and proven us: there will be a pinch, in my view, to get past them. The others, perhaps, will say, If brother Joseph is satisfied with you, you may pass. If it is all right with him, it is all right with me. Then if Joseph shall say to a man, or if brother Brigham say to a man, I forgive you your sins, "Whosoever sins ye remit they are remitted unto them;" if you who have suffered and felt the weight of transgression"if you have generosity enough to forgive the sinner, I will forgive him: you cannot have more generosity than I have. I have given you power to forgive sins, and when the Lord gives a gift, he does not take it back again." -Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p.154-155
"No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith...every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are... [Joseph Smith] reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven. Many will exclaim""Oh, that is very disagreeable! It is preposterous! We cannot bear the thought!" But it is true." -Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p.289-91
"I recollect a conversation I had with a priest who was an old friend of ours, before I was personally acquainted with the Prophet Joseph. I clipped every argument he advanced, until at last he came out and began to rail against Joe Smith, saying, that he was a mean man, a liar, moneydigger, gambler, and a whore-master; and he charged him with everything bad, that he could find language to utter. I said, hold on, brother Gillmore, here is the doctrine, here is the Bible, the Book of Mormon, and the revelations that have come through Joseph Smith the Prophet. I have never seen him, and do not know his private character. The doctrine he teaches is all I know about the matter, bring anything against that if you can. As to anything else I do not care. If he acts like a devil, he has brought forth a doctrine that will save us, if we will abide it. He may get drunk every day of his life, sleep with his neighbor's wife every night, run horses and gamble, I do not care anything about that, for I never embrace any man in my faith. But the doctrine he has produced will save you and me, and the whole world; and if you can find fault with that, find it." -Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, volume 4, p. 77-78
"If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by Joseph Smith; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him." -1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142, Apostle George Q. Cannon
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I do not recall the Mormon document or page(s), butthe Mormonbelief is that Jesus did not fulfill everything required of him by the Father.ThisMormonteachingiswhy arevelation was said to have beengiven to Joseph Smith.
You mention the grandparents of your friend met face to face with Jesus while on earth. Jesus is in heaven sitting at the right hand of theFather. Jesus has yet to return. When Christ comes back for the Christians (the rapture) He will be in the sky. The next time Jesus will physically return to earth will be after the tribulation to set up His millenial kingdom.
The Bible tells us that we are to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith. We do not receive a personal faceto facevisit from Christ
2 Corinthians 13:5-6(New American Standard Bible)
5(A)Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; (B)examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you--unless indeed you (C)fail the test?
6But I trust that you will realize that we ourselves do not fail the test.
The Mormon church has secret ceremonies. You will not find any secret ceremonies in the Bible. The Bible is complete. The Book of Mormon is NOT another testament of Christ.
Satan's sinwas pride - he felt he was an equal to God. Demons (fallen angels)are the angels that followed Satan. One third of the angels chose to follow Satan.
Isaiah 14:12-17(New American Standard Bible)
12"How you have (A)fallen from heaven,
O (B)star of the morning, son of the dawn!
You have been cut down to the earth,
You who have weakened the nations!
13"But you said in your heart,
'I will (C)ascend to heaven;
I will (D)raise my throne above the stars of God,
And I will sit on the mount of assembly
In the recesses of the north.
14'I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
(E)I will make myself like the Most High.'
15"Nevertheless you (F)will be thrust down to Sheol,
To the recesses of the pit.
16"Those who see you will gaze at you,
They will ponder over you, saying,
'Is this the man who made the earth tremble,
Who shook kingdoms,
17Who made the world like a (G)wilderness
And overthrew its cities,
Who (H)did not allow his prisoners to go home?'
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Paul warned about those who would preach "another" Jesus. The Jesus of the Mormon Churches, (Mo. group, and Utah group) is not the Jesus of the Bible. Neither is the Watchtower Jesus, the Jesus of the bible.
I am just waiting on the promised reply about Josephs successor, Was it his son, or Brigham? Will the "True Morman Church" please stand up.
Not bashing, but I'm an ex Mormon. My dad was a Mormon almost all his life. Two weeks before his death I carried him into a baptismal and baptized him in the name of Jesus!
I also have some very good friends that I esteem highly who are Mormons. Very good folks, I just can't see a thinking man believing the Morman doctrine.
If the missionary doesn't like the city he is in, I can give him some pointers that will result in his appointment being changed.
Paul warned about those who would preach "another" Jesus. The Jesus of the Mormon Churches, (Mo. group, and Utah group) is not the Jesus of the Bible. Neither is the Watchtower Jesus, the Jesus of the bible.
I am just waiting on the promised reply about Josephs successor, Was it his son, or Brigham? Will the "True Morman Church" please stand up.
Then you guys are preaching another Messiah, because the Messiah's name was not Jesus but Yeshua that's teh one in the Bible, LOL
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The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. Zephaniah 1:14
פרץ
Happytrigger,*I started a thread to respond to your comments regarding the Mormon view of Christ and salvation.* I was not mocking*Mormons.* I was*showing where Momon teachings and beliefs*conflict*with the Bible.* My comments about the Mormon view of Christ and salvation*were based on Mormon writings and teachings not gossip.**I went to school with Mormons; I have sibblings who had friends in school who were Mormon; I have listened to former Mormons talk about the teachings of the Mormon church;*and I have studied*the Mormon view of Christ and salvation.* One of my siblings who had Mormon*friends was always being asked by these friends to meet with the elders of their church.* The response of my sibling was if our pastor was allowed to*come with*they would be glad to*meet and talk about the Mormon beliefs.* They would not allow our pastor to come with so my sibling never met with the elders from that Mormon church.
The main*book I read*some*years*back on Mormon teachings*belongs to a former pastor, so I do not have the book for reference.* However,*below is information I found online.* The Mormon church does teach that belief in*Joseph Smith is needed for salvation, and the Mormon view of Christ does not agree with the Bible.**
_________________
"It is because the Lord called Joseph Smith that salvation is again available to mortal men.... If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation," -Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 396, 670
There is "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God" -Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190
"I tell you, Joseph holds the keys, and none of us can get into the celestial kingdom without passing by him. We have not got rid of him, but he stands there as the sentinel, holding the keys of the kingdom of God; and there are many of them beside him. I tell you, if we get past those who have mingled with us, and know us best, and have a right to know us best, probably we can pass all other sentinels as far as it is necessary, or as far as we may desire. But I tell you, the pinch will be with those that have mingled with us, stood next to us, weighed our spirits, tried us, and proven us: there will be a pinch, in my view, to get past them. The others, perhaps, will say, If brother Joseph is satisfied with you, you may pass. If it is all right with him, it is all right with me. Then if Joseph shall say to a man, or if brother Brigham say to a man, I forgive you your sins, "Whosoever sins ye remit they are remitted unto them;" if you who have suffered and felt the weight of transgression"if you have generosity enough to forgive the sinner, I will forgive him: you cannot have more generosity than I have. I have given you power to forgive sins, and when the Lord gives a gift, he does not take it back again." -Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p.154-155
"No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith...every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are... [Joseph Smith] reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven. Many will exclaim""Oh, that is very disagreeable! It is preposterous! We cannot bear the thought!" But it is true." -Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p.289-91
"I recollect a conversation I had with a priest who was an old friend of ours, before I was personally acquainted with the Prophet Joseph. I clipped every argument he advanced, until at last he came out and began to rail against Joe Smith, saying, that he was a mean man, a liar, moneydigger, gambler, and a whore-master; and he charged him with everything bad, that he could find language to utter. I said, hold on, brother Gillmore, here is the doctrine, here is the Bible, the Book of Mormon, and the revelations that have come through Joseph Smith the Prophet. I have never seen him, and do not know his private character. The doctrine he teaches is all I know about the matter, bring anything against that if you can. As to anything else I do not care. If he acts like a devil, he has brought forth a doctrine that will save us, if we will abide it. He may get drunk every day of his life, sleep with his neighbor's wife every night, run horses and gamble, I do not care anything about that, for I never embrace any man in my faith. But the doctrine he has produced will save you and me, and the whole world; and if you can find fault with that, find it." -Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, volume 4, p. 77-78
"If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by Joseph Smith; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him." -1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142, Apostle George Q. Cannon
_________________
I do not recall the Mormon document or page(s), but*the Mormon*belief is that Jesus did not fulfill everything required of him by the Father.**This*Mormon*teaching*is*why a*revelation was said to have been*given to Joseph Smith.
You mention the grandparents of your friend met face to face with Jesus while on earth.* Jesus is in heaven sitting at the right hand of the*Father.* Jesus has yet to return.* When Christ comes back for the Christians (the rapture) He will be in the sky.* The next time Jesus will physically return to earth will be after the tribulation to set up His millenial kingdom.
The Bible tells us that we are to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith.* We do not receive a personal faceto face*visit from Christ*
2 Corinthians 13:5-6*(New American Standard Bible)
5(A)Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; (B)examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you--unless indeed you (C)fail the test?
6But I trust that you will realize that we ourselves do not fail the test.
The Mormon church has secret ceremonies.* You will not find any secret ceremonies in the Bible.* The Bible is complete.* The Book of Mormon is NOT another testament of Christ.
Satan's sin*was pride - he felt he was an equal to God.* Demons (fallen angels)*are the angels that followed Satan.* One third of the angels chose to follow Satan.
Isaiah 14:12-17*(New American Standard Bible)
***12"How you have (A)fallen from heaven,
********O (B)star of the morning, son of the dawn!
********You have been cut down to the earth,
********You who have weakened the nations!
***13"But you said in your heart,
********'I will (C)ascend to heaven;
********I will (D)raise my throne above the stars of God,
********And I will sit on the mount of assembly
********In the recesses of the north.
***14'I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
********(E)I will make myself like the Most High.'
***15"Nevertheless you (F)will be thrust down to Sheol,
********To the recesses of the pit.
***16"Those who see you will gaze at you,
********They will ponder over you, saying,
********'Is this the man who made the earth tremble,
********Who shook kingdoms,
***17Who made the world like a (G)wilderness
********And overthrew its cities,
********Who (H)did not allow his prisoners to go home?'
[/align]*
[/align]
The book Mormon Doctrine is not considered a book that is scripture of the LDS church. All books approved by the LDS church will have something like this written in it. Published by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints or by President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. All members who teach have been told that it is in appropriate to use Mormon Doctrine in their classes that they teach.
Do you know what ceremonies took place in the Temple that Israel had while wondering in the desert for 40 years? What things took place at Solomons temple. Or how about Zacharias, John the Baptists father. He went to the temple regularly. Luke 1:8-9. What took place there? Anyone know? There were a lot of people standing around outside while things took place on the inside. Zacharias as a priest who burned incense, but what took place in all of these temples? Nobody knows everything that took place.
The things that take place in temples are sacred to those who go, but not secret. If you really want to know what happens inside, then there are two things that I know of that you can do. 1: Join the LDS church and stay in good standing and be judged to be found worthy to enter the temple. 2: All ceremonies of any religion are kept by the government and is free to the public to get a copy.
Brigham Young taught, "When you go to the temple you will learn the things you will need to know to pass the sentinals and walk to your salvation. At the same time 2 nephi 9:41 says (Book of Mormon) "O then, my beloved brethren, come unto the Lord, the Holy One. Remember that his paths are righteous. Behold, the way for man is narrow, but it lieth in a straight course before him, and the keeper of the gate is the Holy One of Israel; and he employeth no servant there; and there is none other way save it be by the gate; for he cannot be deceived, for the Lord God is his name." This is part of LDS doctrine.
The part about Jesus is in Heaven is partly correct, but when a prophet is on the earth he will and does speak to him face to face according to LDS teachings. Amos 3:7 you already know
A prophet needs to be more than a priest or a minister or an elder. His voice becomes the voice of God.
Heavenly Father did not intend that His children should grapple alone with the problems of mortality. Nor did He intend that they be exposed to Satan's influence without divine assistance and direction. Therefore, before the world was created, God appointed His most faithful and spiritually talented sons as prophets to come to earth at a particular time and in circumstances where, in the foreknowledge of God, his talents would be most beneficial to the kingdom of God and to mankind in general.
From the very beginning, prophets have had a solemn to raise the warning voice, to forsee future times, and to reveal the mind and will of God. Hence, those men appointed by God are called prophets (forewarners), seers (see-ers into any period of time as it affects God's children), and revelators (revealers of Gods will). Doctrine and Covenants student manual enrichment F page 389.
Satan sin was more than pride according to LDS teachings
According to LDS scripture. The Book of Abraham is a translation from some Egyptian papyri that came into the hands of Joseph Smith in 1835, containing writings of the Patriarch Abraham.
Abraham 3:22-28
22: Now the Lord had shown unto, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;
23: And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me; Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.
24: And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;
25: And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things their God shall command them;
26: And they who keep there first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not there first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.
27: And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.
28: And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and at that day, many followed.
Now you may know according to LDS beliefs that this was the war in heaven and you chose to follow Gods plan and come to this earth to be prved to see if you will keep all his commandments.
Without a prophet on the earth, you cannot receive revelations like this.
3 questions that LDS missionaries like to discuss with everyone.
Where did I come from?
Why am I here?
Where am I going?
There is a way that seems right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." Prov. 16:25.
I bought that too hook line and sinker. I was 18 years old in Viet Nam, picked up the Bible and life hasn't been the same. I let God wash away the cloulds of religion from my eyes whenYeshua was revealed.
I am still trying to understand it. They believe in Jesus Christ and there have been some interesting things that I have seen and read. I will try to answer your other question about Joseph Smiths son a little more tomorrow. I just want to make sure I am clear on succession in the leadership of the church, since it was established by Joseph Smith and which seems to follow the way succession took place with the Apostles after Christ died.
Happy, For being one who is trying to figure out what "They" believe, you suddenly seem to have became an authority on "their" doctrine. Shouldn't you be saying, "I" instead of "Them" and, "They"??
I think I had you pegged right at the beggining, wouldn't you agree?
I have looked into the history of Joseph Smith and have got to believe that this fellow was somewhat disturbed. He started fooling around with other women and then all of a sudden he gets a vision from God that plural marriage is OK. Yeah right, how convenient for him and his appetite for many women! Brigham Young was the same. The guy had over 50 children. These guys were more interested in the s-e-x part than in the religious in my opinion. They only used religion to help them get more women. I could only imaging fathering 50 + kids. When did he ever get out of bed to preach to the flock??
I am still trying to understand it. They believe in Jesus Christ and there have been some interesting things that I have seen and read. I will try to answer your other question about Joseph Smiths son a little more tomorrow. I just want to make sure I am clear on succession in the leadership of the church, since it was established by Joseph Smith and which seems to follow the way succession took place with the Apostles after Christ died.
Happy, For being one who is trying to figure out what "They" believe, you suddenly seem to have became an authority on "their" doctrine. Shouldn't you be saying, "I" instead of "Them" and, "They"??
I think I had you pegged right at the beggining, wouldn't you agree?
I have been studying this for over 2 years. I want to have a clear understanding as much as possible to make a final decision. I am currently trying to understand this succession thing. I do know that in the LDS church once you are called to be an apostle you are there for the rest of your life. The most senior apostle becomes the new prophet. All the apostles are set a part as prophet, seer and revelator.
For Happy Trigger - Salvation and Mormonism
