So as not to hijack HG89's thread, I'd like to clear something up (or spark more debate). There was a reference about praying to the dead. This is one of the more common criticisms protestants have re: Catholics, and as usual, comes from a lack of understanding.
When You ask a friend to pray for you, why do you do this? Do you think God does not hear your prayers? Do you believe that your friend is better qualified to speak to God? Or would it be more accurate to say that the joining of prayer in communion with our brtohers and sisters increases the power of prayer? If this were not the case, why would we bother to pray together or petition others to pray on our behalf?
Regarding the dead, do you believe yourdeceased loved ones are in Heaven? Do you believe they are in the Presence of God? Do the dead in Heaven have any knowledge of you who are still here on earth(this may be a big sticking point for some of you)?
As Catholics, we believe in the power of communal prayer. We also believe and pray that our deceased loved ones are in Heaven in communion with our Lord and Savior.We DO NOT wish to "conjure the dead to do our bidding". That would be sorcery. We do, however, ask our deceased loved ones, who are in God's presence, to pray on our behalf. And how much more powerful are the prayers of those in God's presence?
I know I'm not going to convert anyone with this message. I only seek to shine a light of understanding on the subject, a light which many protestants would never otherwise see. And maybe some of you will be a little slower to judge us crazy Catholics in the future.
I also know that some of you will be very quick to quote scripture in order to show me how wrong I am. To that, let me say in advance, I will not be impressed. After all, the devil can quote scripture to suit his purposes, too.
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Vizslas... because life's too short to hunt with an ugly dog.
Take a warrior hunting!! http://www.warriorsoutdoors.com/
Being raised Baptist....(oh my)! I can tell you that when I got older I learned to think for myself. I do believe that my loved ones are in heaven and do communicate with the Lord. Can I say that I have ever prayed to my loved ones??? I don't think I have. Do I think it would be wrong??? No it wouldn't. Like you said. They are in the presence of God and to ask them for their help or to pray to them IMO would not be wrong. People are going to throw a lot of scripture from several versions of the bible at this one. Should be interesting.
In all honesty,I don't have much of a problem with the Catholic religion. In some instances the Catholic religion makes more sense than any other one out there. The only problems with the Catholic religion that I have is the role that the Priests and Pope play in it. To me they are glorified and we should only see glory in God.
You should read what happened to King Saul, when he disturbed the dead prophet Samuel.
Making it short; King Saul died the next day, for disobeying the law not to speak to the dead.
Besides the word is Clear, "there is only one God and one mediator between God and man, Jesus the man"
Why would you want to pray to a dead person that is resting, wasn't he glad to leave this world of sorrow and pain, and you are going to continue to bother him with your cares ?
Speaking to the dead as praying to the dead is a religion called Spiritism, and that is what you are practicing if you are doing so.
The Bible says we that are alive are to pray one for another, it doesn't include the dead.
We do what is pertaining to the living and the dead must be left alone to rest until the resurrection.
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The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. Zephaniah 1:14
פרץ
I believe God is omniscient. I've not read anything to indicate that anyone else is. Correct me if I'm wrong -- point me to scripture and I will eagerly read it. But as it stands for me right now, if I ask Saint so and so to pray for me, he can't hear me, so why bother?
I spent 2 years in an Episcopal church..and I can tell you that while I don't ask the dead to pray for me..I do remember my father in law and father in prayer whom have both passed away..I pray for mercy..they both were rough customers.
C7
But as it stands for me right now, if I ask Saint so and so to pray for me, he can't hear me, so why bother?
How do you know?
Again, if you find a verse that explains that humans gain omniscience upon dying, I'll read it with great interest.
I don't claim that humans ever gain omniscience, nor does the Church. This is not to say that "humans" in heaven are completely ignorant of the earthly plain either.
__________________
Vizslas... because life's too short to hunt with an ugly dog.
Take a warrior hunting!! http://www.warriorsoutdoors.com/
But as it stands for me right now, if I ask Saint so and so to pray for me, he can't hear me, so why bother?
How do you know?
I have nothing wrong with asking another person to pray for me. I just don't have faith in the Catholic tradition that dead people can hear me. I don't feel that grandma so and so is looking down at me from heaven, etc.
Praying to the dead
