Eternal Security..

[Chuck7]

The replies of Snooky and Preacher got me to startthis new thread.

This topic is very interesting to me..and I really wonder where it's roots lie..If the root comes from an old saint who truly knew God..then I wholeheartedly agree..There is a rest to the man or women of God who has truly surendered all and lives for God alone..Charles Stanley , a die hard Baptist preached a wonderful message 2 weeks ago on just this topic and said , if there is no No New Creation IN Christ Jesus..than that man or women is not saved..Going to the front of the church and confessing Christ and being baptized does not save anyone..this would be considered part of the "Many are called but few are chosen." WhatI see alot of in today's Christianity is a lack of fear of God being displayed.
When a man or women is truly saved..thier complete household will do a 180 degrees...Yes , when a man or women is at one with God..they will feel eternaly secure for they are "Blessed" "Thier Spirit beareth witness that they are the children of God."

BUT if you are still living in sin and misquoting Romans 7/{ Like that is the normal Christian lifestyle..you are decieving yourself.} Romans 7 was not Paul's life or he would not have written other verses like."Let it not once be named among you etc..etc..etc..Romans 7 was written to introduce Romans 8...And that complete Romans 8 verse is only found in the King James..Let us read it together.
Romans 8:1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
This no condemnation is conditional...dear friends..some of us out here hate sin..It is not normal to be falling in and out of sin daily..God has given us His holy Spirit to make us overcomers..God is not mocked...whatsoever a man soweth shall he reap.: "If you sow to the flesh ye shall reap corruption."

"For the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through our Lord Jesus Christ."Key word..through Jesus Christ...eternal life is a life of Jesus being Lord..daily.."For if anyone comes to Christ and does not deny himself..he cannot be my disciple." Being a Christian cost everything you have..and when that happens the Lord will bless you with His peace and joy..andmuch some .

If one will read that chapter closely you will see that there are many conditions in Romans 3 as well as the other Romans verses..the gift of eternal life is to them who will seek God with all thier heart , mind and soul. The prodigal son had to do something..he would have still been d a m n e d if he had not WALKED back to the father..
James 5:19Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Note..the wandered is a "Brother" who is dead.Paul said ,"I buffet myself lest after winning others..I myself might be a castaway."

[PastorJim08]

C7,

While I avoid any sort of debate in this forum, I have to comment on this subject. While I suspect that Snooky and I would not agree on some points in our own doctrines, if you read his last post in the suicide thread, he has posted some very convincing scriptures that disagree with this whole idea of "eternal security." I believe in eternal security, but onlyif I continue in the faith. But if I don't, "I myself will be disqualified from the race." I have heard it argued that Jesus would not have went to all that trouble to just cast us away. To that I say; "How shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?" As Christians, knowing what He did for us causes me to strive even harder to live for Him. And not just have acasual attitude about thecross and the price He paid.
It's ironic to me that the same people who tell me that I can't lose my salvation, also tell me I am condemed to hell because I read or preach from a translation besides King James. Which is it? You can't have it both ways. Sorry for sounding ticked, but this is a sore subject with me. I believe as a pastor, it, this doctrine,is damning people's souls and robbing themof a fuller life in Christ.

Blessings.....Pastorjim

[Chuck7]

I believe as a pastor, it, this doctrine,is damning people's souls and robbing themof a fuller life in Christ.
Pastor Jim

Amen Brother Jim..

[The Rev]

I am not going to enter into a debate either ( as it has been hashed out before), I know that I know that I'm saved by grace! I thank God for His saving Grace and His forgiveness, else I'd be headed for hell! Especially all that has transpired since my wife and I split.I've said some nasty things that I felt needed to be said, they didn't much sound like Christian talk.[&:]

[Chuck7]

There is really no debate to it..I just wanted to get this thought away from the suicide thread as that thread seemedto get a little side tracked..

It's very simple actually."By their fruit ye shall know them."
The opposite of eternal security is a holy fear of God..That Holy Fear causes men to obey..to love the unloveable ,,to put God first..

However, I do believe there is a true Eternal Security to the obedient..There have been 100s of verses posted to show this is truly a false doctrine that gives folks a false hope..
Jesus warned about the 10 virgins..5 were ready 5 were not.

Jesus warned about branches not bearing fruit..they would be burned..

Jesus warned there would be a great falling away..

Jesus warned about looking behind / not beng fit for the Kingdom of God,,

Jesus warned that many are called but only a few chosen

Jesus warned what would happen to the ungodly and disobedient "They are like chaff and will not stand in the judgement."

Jesus warned.."My brothers and sisters are they that do the will of God.

Jesus warned of the sheep and the goats..the only difference ..the sheep were doers.

Jesus warned ..a backslider shall be filled with his ways and he returns like the pig going back to his slop.

Jesus warned..though Esau sought repentance with tears...it could not be found..

Jesus admonished in Revelation "That the white robes are the righteous deeds of the saints..

James warns..if any man look into the Word and is not a doer..his religion is vain..

James warned that if your faith is not active it is dead and you are no better off than the demons,,and even they tremble at the Lord

Jesus warned..there are 4 types of hearts that hear the Word..3/4 of them heard in vain...only 25% were sown in good soil..

MAKE YOUR CALLING SURE says Peter...yes there is a secure walk..only dead men find it..You must be dead to self..

[Snooky]

As I have said before, I believe in "eternal security". I simply don't believe in "unconditional" eternal security. If I fear God and keep his commandments, nothing can separate me from my salvation. However I don't subscribe to "sinning" saints, or "saved" sinners.
God says, "The wages of sin is death".
God says, "The soul that sinneth shall surely die".
The devil says, "sins wages isn't death".
Satan says the soul that sinneth shall not die".

The doctrine of unconditional eternal security says:
Our virtues shall not save us, neither shall our sins damn us.

For your concideration, here is 20 saying often heard in discussions concerning unconditional eternal security. I might add that I havn't found them recorded in the scriptures.

[ol][*]Once saved always saved.[*]Christians are no different than other sinners, except they are saved.[*]God cannot see the Christians sin because they are covered by the blood of Christ.[*]We can be filthy as a barnyard in body and still be saved and holy in spirit.[*]We all sin in word, thought and deed, every moment and every day.[*]All who have ever fallen away were never saved in the first place.[*]That when one comes to Christ, their sins are paid for past, present and future.[*]You can only lose fellowship with God and not salvation.[*]God would never disown or damn one of His own children.[*]A sheep cannot become a goat.[*]If we sin we only lose fellowship and not relationship with God.[*]Salvation is unconditional.[*]If salvation cannot be earned it cannot be lost.[*]God will not begin a work that he will not finish.[*]Repentance is not required for salvation.[*]Christians who say we must remain faithful to stay saved preach a works salvation.[*]We can be "Sinning Saints" or "Backslidden Christians" and still be saved.[*]Only at death can we ultimately be saved from sin.[*]Christians are still sinners.[*]I am secure because Jesus paid my sin debt in full. [/ol]

[PreacherTony]

If you believe you have ANY part in your salvation other than accepting the atoning work of Christ, you are trusting in YOURSELF and you are in BIG trouble.... It's ALL GRACE thru FAITH ....

Ibelieve (a) that such only are real believers as endure unto the end; (b) that their persevering attachment to Christ is the grand mark which distinguishes them from superficial professors; (c) that a special Providence watches over their welfare; and (d) that they are kept by the power of God through faith unto eternal salvation.
*** (a) John 8:31. "Then said Jesus . . . If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed."
Col. 1:21,23. "And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled....If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel."
*** (b) I John 2:19. "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not ad of us."
Matt. 13:19-21. "When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart.... But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended."
*** (c) Rom. 8:28. "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose."
Matt. 6:30. "Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which today is and tomorrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O. ye of little faith?"
Psa. 121:3. "He will not suffer thy foot to be moved: he that keepeth thee will not slumber."
Heb. 1:14. "Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?"
*** (d) I Pet. 1:5. "Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation."
Phil. 1:6. "He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ."
John 10:28. "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."
John 10:29. "No man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."
John 16:8. (The Spirit) "will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment."
Rom. 8:35-39. "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long, we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels. nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

and there are more ...... Hebrews 6:1 tells us to LEAVE the DOCTRINE OF DEAD WORKS!!!! It goes on to say that if you believe you have to be saved again, after being saved the first time, it's IMPOSSIBLE .... CHrist died ONCE for our sins ....

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


Please don't let these guys that crucify the son afresh by having to be saved, lost, saved, mess with your minds ..... it is WORKS for salvation that they preach ......

If ALL things work for our good, how could someone that once believed lose their salvation???? Where is the good in that? Rom. 8:28-31, "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?"

Jesus said elsewhere"Depart from me, I NEVER knew you" to those that proclaimed their works for Him .... He didn't say, I knew you then you fell .... He said, "I NEVER KNEW YOU!"


The wicked doctrine is WORKS to get saved OR WORKS to KEEP your salvation!

[Snooky]

Preacher, Don't get in an uproar. Relax and take a "chill pill". One can think more clearly when he isn't uptight.
Let's pick a few words from tour reply comndeming any form of works. These words would show action, or state of being. Responses or reactions based upon an outside influence. These responses are labeled "works". One void of works, is one that is dead, or having no life, being past the ability of response, or reaction. The opposite of "death" is "life", or being alive, having the compacity to respond or react to a situation, condition, or statement, ect.
There are works of God, works of righteousness, works of faith, works wrought by grace, works meet for repentance, ect. ect.
We are commanded to be careful to "maintain" good works. Admonished to shun the works of darkness and let not sin even be named among you.

Yes it is all by Grace THROUGH faith. We have been through this multiple times, and I fail to recall anyone ever being able to produce a scripture that says one is save by grace alone, (without faith). The opposite has been true, the scripture says faith with out works is dead. Dead, death, lacking the ability of responding, ect.

words you used in the first portion ofyour post;
believe, endure, persevering, kept, through, faith, unto, continue, then, shall, are, moved, went, continued, manifest, ect. and possibly more that was missed with the first glance. All showing a live response to something. Words listed as works. Works which you stearnly condeem and classify as wicked, but only when convienient to support a doctrine that originated in the Garden with the serpent, "if you sin, you shall not surley die".

your quoteHe didn't say, I knew you then you fell .... He said, "I NEVER KNEW YOU!"

Your emphasis being stressed, "I never knew you", seems to reflect a view of Calvanism. A connection that I see often when discussing eternal security.

[Chuck7]

Please don't let these guys that crucify the son afresh by having to be saved, lost, saved, mess with your minds ..... it is WORKS for salvation that they preach ......
Preacher Tony..

Here what James has to say..2;21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Tony, the works that Paul was talking about not keeping were the works of the law...not works from obeying the Holy Spirit..that is called obedience..

1 Peter 1:22Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit

[PreacherTony]

I'm done ...... you will not hear, and I already know what I have fasted and prayed about ...... if you want to believe you have to be good enough to keep it, that is works for salvation ..... I won't convince you and you can't possibly convince me ......... God bless all and may the Good lord lead you in HIS truth .....

I serve God because He saved me, not to BE saved ...Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?