Chicken and egg argument.

[Sylvan]

Note: I broght this over from the Politics forum. Thought it might be more appropriate for it to be kicked around here. Any thoughts?

One does not need to be religious to have high moral standards and indeed there are many very moral people who are not religious. At the same time there are some very religious people whose morals are absolutely atrocious. Any form of government will work better if the society has high moral standards but I see no reason why our Constitution would not be an excellent governing document for a population completely devoid of religious beliefs.

Good point. To me this brings up a very old chicken and egg argument. Are people moral because theyare religiousorare they religiousbecause they are moral? Now I'm sure there are some whose moral behavior has been greatly and positively influenced by religion but Iwould say more often religious people are moral creatures first and become religious simply because they believe it's the right way to live their lives. Isn't it remarkable that religion is basically inherited. Children overwhelmingly grow up to adopt the religion of their parents.Imo, they have been taught that to be a "good" person they must follow the teachings of that particular religion and being moral by nature simply do what has been defined for them as moral.

How manyattend church because they truly believe the supernatural claims of that religion as opposed to simply doing what they need to do tomeet their moral obligations as taught to them? In other words, are they believers because they believe or are they believers because they have been taught that the only way to be a good and moral individual is to be a believer?

[Rebel Hog]

ORIGINAL: Sylvan

How manyattend church because they truly believe the supernatural claims of that religion as opposed to simply doing what they need to do tomeet their moral obligations as taught to them? In other words, are they believers because they believe or are they believers because they have been taught that the only way to be a good and moral individual is to be a believer?

They are believers because they accepted the teachings of the Holy Bible. Many believe when their parents never believed and werenever taught by family or friends.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink, it has to want to drink!

[Sylvan]

They are believers because they accepted the teachings of the Holy Bible. Many believe when their parents never believed and were never taught by family or friends.

Of course sighting the exception doesn't change the rule and clearly the rule is that children in overwhelming numbers grow up to adopt the religion of their parents. Christian children accept Christianity, Muslem children accept Islam, Hindus Hinduism, Seeks, Bhudists, Jews etc. etc. etc. all basically inherit the religion of their parents. It's not a new phenomenon either. It's always been the case. Children born in classical Greece would come to believe in Zeus just as their parents did. Viking children would accept Thor. Name a time and/or place and you will find that religion is is passed down from generation to generation. Only very slowly do new religions come about or old ones fade away.

So without a doubt, for most of us it is primarily the result of the random chance of where and when we were born that we claim with certainty the truths of a given faith. Imho then, it follows that we are religious because we are moral and not moral becuase of religion.

[TexasBen]

Sylvan, religion is a huge spectrum and doesn't confine or conform to any and all beliefs! Now, if you say Baptist religion or Methodist or any other specific then thats another story, am I wrong? I have an aunt that is moral but shes not of any religion. I don't believe you can say if we arereligious because we are moral.

Another instance is my father, God rest his soul, For a lot of his younger years he was immoral but as time went by he turned from his immoral ways but did not become religious!! My mother was in fact what most people would refer to as a religious fanatic, which she always said it was a compliment to her, and probably told me daily about Jesus Christ and what Hedid for me on the Cross!

I mean you could go on and on and IMO theres no rule of thumb that can be applied! Preachers children growing up and winding up in prison and so forth. Hopefully what we try to enthrall into our children about God and again hopefully they'll come full circle to God in the end.

I guess what we should be thankful for is that here in America we've had most of our lives to hear and learn about Jesus Christ. Its upto to the individual to try to sort out which road to go down. Myself I'll stick to the narrow one. My2cents

[Leafrivermac]

Most take on the general religion of their parents. Many take on religion to fulfill their idea of a moral obligation. Some take on religion to portray an image of righteousness.
But nobody is a christian unless they have truley given their lives to Jesus Christ. This commitment goes above everything else and the only reason they are christian is because they have come to know Christ.

[salukipv1]

Chicken came first, so which one is that then?

[TexasBen]

ORIGINAL: salukipv1

Chicken came first, so which one is that then?

Had to be a Christian chicken!!

[Chuck7]

In other words, are they believers because they believe or are they believers because they have been taught that the only way to be a good and moral individual is to be a believer?Sylvan

First of all brother..being good and moral does not make one a Christian. Going to the altar and going through a ritual does not make one a Christian.."For many are called but few are chosen."and certainly.."The Way" is not a life of good morals.."The WAY" is through Jesus..and through Jesus there will be a life of good fruit.

[Sylvan]

... the only reason they are christian is because they have come to know Christ.

And the reason a person believes he or she needs "to know Christ" is determined primarily by the happenstance of birth. An individual born within the last 100 years to Baptist parents in, let's say, south Mississippi is extremely likely to grow up to believe this while someone born at the same time in Rihad Saudi Arabia to a Shia family will be extremely unlikely to believe this.

We all like to think our rectitude of faith comes from within but the evidence is overwhelming that this is not the case. We are molded from birth to believe. What becomes certainty to one becomes nonsense to another and the determining factor is the chance of birth. So we are presented with the faith of our fathers and, because we have an inate need to be believe we are "good", accept it's dogma as truth. Good people become Christians in South Mississippi, in other places they become Wahhabist. The point again is that we are religious because we are moral and not moral because we are religious.

[Sylvan]

First of all brother..being good and moral does not make one a Christian. Going to the altar and going through a ritual does not make one a Christian.."For many are called but few are chosen."and certainly.."The Way" is not a life of good morals.."The WAY" is through Jesus..and through Jesus there will be a life of good fruit.

Chuck, I'm making no point at all about what propitiations are necessary to become a Christian.