As promised for those who are having a dificult time comprehending, and misrepresenting the oneness view of the Godhead, I offer my personal view on the subject. It doesn't reflect any other persons view, this is according to Snooky. If you quote me, don't say the oneness believe, say Snooky believes. If the scripture says something, and I qoute the scripture, then say the bible says, Gods word declares, ect.
Heb 10:38 The just shall LIVE by faith. Faith is an unshakable, unwavering, absolute, complete trust in the fact that there is a God. That his will, his word, his actions, doctrines, teachings, ect. are totally true and without question. To question God, his word, ect. is to commit the same offence as Adam and Eve, to desire to become as God. If one thinks his openion is equal to, or equivilentthe word of God, he may as well stop reading as Gods word has been replaced by his own wisdom and therefore he will argue with all that is said, qouted, and refered to from the only source of truth available, the Unadulterated, everlasting, word of God.
Two scriptures should be all that is required to settle the Godhead issue to the man who walks by faith. Gen 1:1. We are introduced to the central figure of the scripture in the first four words written. "In the beginning God". These four words say it all. God, not Gods! God in the singular form. Regardless of how many ways he expresses himself, reveals himself, how many forms he takes upon himsef, he remains the ONE introduced to us as "GOD".
Duet. 6:4 Hear O'Israel, the Lord thy GOD IS ONE LORD, and him shalt thou serve. Do you believe God and his word? If so the Trinity should no longer be an issue. Except ye become as a little child. But! But! But! is a spirit that is having dificulty excepting what God has said.
John 4:24 God is a Spirit. End of arguement to the man of faith. A single Spirit! God is not a man as some seem to think. God can take upon himself any form that he chooses, the form doesn't become God, even though God inhabits the chosen form, and become a visible image. No man has seen God at any time, the only begotten of the Father, he has revealed him. Jesus became the expressed image of the invisible God. God was in Christ, or manifested in the flesh.
Here is what transpired. One Spirit was in the beginning and created all things. In Gods perfect garden man was placed. The devil as a serpent deceived Adam and he sinned and transgressed the commands of God, that is the defination of sin, disobedience to Gods commandments. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission, not any blood, but blood that was not tainted with sin fromthe first man Adam.
Abraham's faith forsaw Gods plan and declared, "God will prepare himself a sacrifice". David also saw the future redemption, and declared, "a body O'Lord hast thou prepared me". Isaiah saw it and said "Unto us a child is born, a Son is given-His name shall be called, The Mighty God". To fulfill the plan of God for mans redemption, The Holy Ghost overshadowed Mary, (making the Holy Ghost the Father of the concieved child) and she brought forth a son and called his name Jesus. A name inherited from his Father which was the Holy Spirit of the Eternal God,from the beginning. The son born of Mary has flesh and blood, something Jesus himself said that a Spirit did not posess. God being a Spirit and not a fleshly man came and dwelt within the fleshly man but remained a Spirit as he always was, and always will be. The flesh died upon the cross! God cannot die, cannot be killed, cannot even be contained within the confines of a fleshly body. However within that fleshly man called Jesus, The Christ, dwelt all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. Everything that is the Godhead was within the fleshly body of the man, Christ Jesus. Jesus was a complete man in every way and in every sence of the word. At the same time he had dwelling within himself all that is called God. He was truly God, and truly man. The man remained a man, and deity remained Deity. God, (The Deity) was in Christ, (the man). When The Son, (fleshly man) shall deliever the Kingdom unto the Father, (Eternal Spirit) the Sonship will cease and God will be all and in all. One God will sit upon the one throne of heaven, even the same God who was in the beginning, and he will still be singular and not Triune.
For there is One God and Father of all, who is above all, and in you all.
There is none other name under heaven whereby we must be saved.
At the name of Jesus, every knee shall bow, and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father
I cannot believe you when you say that you have been reading the bible for over 43 years and still do not understand that Jesus Christ is Lord (God). How can you not understand that?
Swift Arrow. I am puzzled that you keep seeing something that isn't there. Copy and paste where I said that Jesus wasn't God. Please do this as I want to see what you are hung up on.
If it is the fact that flesh isn't God, let me ask you if Jesus lied? I qouted the scripture, read it, Luke 24:39. Another scripture that say "that which is born of the flesh is flesh" is found in John 3:6. Is that a true statement?
Here is a copy and paste of the last scripture quoted in my post:
At the name of Jesus, every knee shall bow, and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father
And you say that I deny that Jesus Christ is Lord?? Whose post are you reading?? Certainly not mine!!
I would feel kind of foolish if I made such a statement when the man has just said the opposite in his last few words. I could take that as an accusation that I willingly lied about what I believed, however. I really think a bit of novice zeal and pride has surfaced and a little "foot in mouth" will soon lost its flavor with muturity.
I never said that flesh was God. You kept saying that Jesus was merely a fleshly man (is the way that I took it as). If I mistook what you said than I apollogize.
Heb 10:38 The just shall LIVE by faith. Faith is an unshakable, unwavering, absolute, complete trust in the fact that there is a God. That his will, his word, his actions, doctrines, teachings, ect. are totally true and without question. To question God, his word, ect. is to commit the same offence as Adam and Eve, to desire to become as God. If one thinks his openion is equal to, or equivilentthe word of God, he may as well stop reading as Gods word has been replaced by his own wisdom and therefore he will argue with all that is said, qouted, and refered to from the only source of truth available, the Unadulterated, everlasting, word of God.
Stop right here brother with your comment on opinion..To the trinity beleiver and his understanding all you speak is an opinion..and visa versa..So who are we to judge another man's understanding of the scriptures..?? I for one have never seen a trinitarian start a thread defending why they beleive in the Trinity..Why?? Because we beleive the Word is so plain and simple that it needs no defending..and if I run in to a Oneness beleiver I have no problem with that individual YET SOMEHOW this topic seemsto always come up..and I have to question that..why is that? I will say there are some verses that APPEAR to say that ..BUT there are 100s that say they are three separate dieties . yet in perfect agreement. Therefore as Dabowhunter explains..those handful of verses that appear to support Oneness are much easier to explain than vice versa...trying to explain 100 verses that clearly state there are 3 different dieties at work here..Jesus sitting beside the Father making intercession for us and HE {The Holy SPirit} working through us.
Two scriptures should be all that is required to settle the Godhead issue to the man who walks by faith. Gen 1:1. We are introduced to the central figure of the scripture in the first four words written. "In the beginning God". These four words say it all. God, not Gods! God in the singular form. Regardless of how many ways he expresses himself, reveals himself, how many forms he takes upon himsef, he remains the ONE introduced to us as "GOD". until we read this..26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:
Duet. 6:4 Hear O'Israel, the Lord thy GOD IS ONE LORD, and him shalt thou serve. Do you believe God and his word? If so the Trinity should no longer be an issue. Except ye become as a little child. But! But! But! is a spirit that is having dificulty excepting what God has said.
John 4:24 God is a Spirit. End of arguement to the man of faith. A single Spirit! God is not a man as some seem to think. God can take upon himself any form that he chooses, the form doesn't become God, even though God inhabits the chosen form, and become a visible image. No man has seen God at any time, the only begotten of the Father, he has revealed him. Jesus became the expressed image of the invisible God. God was in Christ, or manifested in the flesh.
Here is what transpired. One Spirit was in the beginning and created all things. In Gods perfect garden man was placed. The devil as a serpent deceived Adam and he sinned and transgressed the commands of God, that is the defination of sin, disobedience to Gods commandments. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission, not any blood, but blood that was not tainted with sin fromthe first man Adam.
Abraham's faith forsaw Gods plan and declared, "God will prepare himself a sacrifice". David also saw the future redemption, and declared, "a body O'Lord hast thou prepared me". Isaiah saw it and said "Unto us a child is born, a Son is given-His name shall be called, The Mighty God". To fulfill the plan of God for mans redemption, The Holy Ghost overshadowed Mary, (making the Holy Ghost the Father of the concieved child) and she brought forth a son and called his name Jesus. A name inherited from his Father which was the Holy Spirit of the Eternal God,from the beginning. The son born of Mary has flesh and blood, something Jesus himself said that a Spirit did not posess.
God being a Spirit and not a fleshly man came and dwelt within the fleshly man but remained a Spirit as he always was, and always will be. The flesh died upon the cross! God cannot die, cannot be killed, cannot even be contained within the confines of a fleshly body.QUESTION ?? Do we possess this same Spirit as Jesus had??
However within that fleshly man called Jesus, The Christ, dwelt all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. Everything that is the Godhead was within the fleshly body of the man, Christ Jesus. Jesus was a complete man in every way and in every sence of the word. At the same time he had dwelling within himself all that is called God. Question concerning theALL that I highlighted....Are you saying, what it looks like your saying ..that the complete Father God was in Christ and was not in Heaven ." Just looking for clarification..
He was truly God, and truly man. The man remained a man, and deity remained Deity. God, (The Deity) was in Christ, We triitarians believe that too...but we also beleive there was a Father on the throne to whom Christ prayed too..He was not praying to Himself..The Word says the Spirit was in Jesus without measure..whereas we have a measure.
(the man). When The Son, (fleshly man) shall deliever the Kingdom unto the Father, (Eternal Spirit) the Sonship will cease : NO sir...we beleive the Son was with the Father from the beginning and will rule during the 1000 year millenian,,and God will be all and in all...God is in ALL as we speak to as many as recieve Him.."WE are taught by Him , we hear His voice..we have His Spirit."One God will sit upon the one throne of heaven, even the same God who was in the beginning, and he will still be singular and not Triune. To the trinitarian you are expressing an opinion here..There are 3 that bear record in Heaven.. 1 john 5:7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
and look what the Oneness did to Stephen..54When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth. 55But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. 57Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
Yes sir, the Jews were die hard Oneness...they could not accept Jesus as the Son..making Himself equal with God..
For there is One God and Father of all, who is above all, and in you all. yes sir..and God 's will is that we would have one mind and one purpose and to be one as He and the Father are one as He prayed to the Father in john 17. There is none other name under heaven whereby we must be saved.
At the name of Jesus, every knee shall bow, and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father
What makes me puzzle is after all that very fine biblical explanation someone will question your belief as To whether Yeshua is God in the flesh, it just blows my mind, do people just glance over a post and then concludes whatever he thinks or expect the posts says?
That seems to be v a very predominant attitude in Western Christianity, to find a fault where there is none.
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The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. Zephaniah 1:14
פרץ
In Genesis 1:26, God says, "Let us make man in our image." "Let us...." Does this mean that there is more than one God? Some say yes. They say that the Hebrew word elohim is a plural noun, showing that there is more than one God. Yet the Hebrew Bible plainly quotes God as saying that there is only one God. "I am God," he says, "and there is no other" (Isaiah 45:22). God does not say, "we are God."
So what does the Hebrew word elohim mean? Is it plural? Does it prove there is one God or many? How can we find out if we don't read Hebrew?
You can prove it yourself
You probably already have some Bible-study tools that can help you learn what elohim means. You do not have to be Hebrew scholars, but you will need to do some study.
Start your study with prayer. Ask God to give you understanding. Tell him of your willingness to give up old cherished ideas if he shows you that they are wrong. Confess any pride, vanity or anger that might inhibit your understanding. Express faith in Christ's leadership. Admit to him that your humanity sometimes limits your vision and distorts your thinking. Pray in faith that God will teach you and that he will grant you ears that hear and a heart that responds.
Having done that, you'll be ready to study. You'll be like the Bereans, who "received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true" (Acts 17:11).
To help you know the truth about elohim, I'd like to remind you of one important concept: To know what any word means, observe how it is used. Notice whether the word is used as a noun, verb, pronoun, adverb or another part of speech. If the word is used as a noun, notice if it is a singular, plural or proper noun. Analyze how the word is used.
Notice the other words that are used with it as well. For example, if you are uncertain if the noun is plural or singular, are there any pronouns associated with it that would help you find out? The more examples that you have of its use in context, the more certain you can be of its definition. You might even discover that a word has different meanings in different contexts. Some words are verbs in one context but nouns in another. The English word saw is a well-known example of this.
A study in Strong's Concordance
Our study can begin with Strong's Exhaustive Concordance. Those who own other concordances or computer Bible programs can apply the same principles I'm giving here with only slight modifications for your situation. Some resources will make the job easier than Strong's does. But because Strong's Concordance is a widely used Bible-study tool, I'm confining my comments to that work.
Look up the word God in the concordance. Under that heading you'll find a list of all the verses where you can find the word God in the King James Version. Notice that the verse list begins with Genesis 1:1, "God made the heaven and the earth." To the right of that verse is the number 430. Turn to the Hebrew and Chaldee dictionary in the back of the concordance and look up word number 430. You will find that this word is elohim. So Genesis 1:1 is the first place in the Bible where one finds elohim.
You can now read elohim in Genesis 1:1 by reading the text like this. "In the beginning elohim made the heaven and the earth." If you read Strong's definition of elohim, you will notice that it has several definitions and that it is a plural noun. By this, Strong means that elohim is plural in form. However, we should not assume in advance that it is always plural in meaning (see box below). Remember, the context tells us the meaning.
Returning to the verse list for God, notice that for the vast majority of times that we read God in the Old Testament, it corresponds to the Hebrew word elohim. The NIV Exhaustive Concordance claims that one can find elohim 2,602 times in the Old Testament. The New International Version translates it 2,242 times as God. It's the most common word in the Old Testament translated as "God."
Therefore, you have more than 2,200 verses that can help you understand what elohim means. If you want to be convinced what elohim means, then start reading those verses.
It may help you to take Strong's verse list of God and to read each verse aloud, substituting elohim for God at the appropriate places. Substituting elohim into the text is probably the closest you and I will ever come to reading the Hebrew Bible. Yet it's a simple way of cementing the true meaning of elohim in our minds. But remember, don't just read the verse by itself "” read it in its broader context.
Substituting elohim for God in Genesis 1:1 can change our perspective of that verse and it can begin to help us understand this subject. Let's notice that applying this principle affects the reading of other verses in that same chapter. Genesis 1:2-5 will read: "Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of elohim was hovering over the waters. And elohim said, `Let there be light,' and there was light. Elohim saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. Elohim called the light `day,' and the darkness he called `night.' And there was evening, and there was morning "” the first day."
Here are a few facts I learned when I studied this subject. I'll start with Genesis 1:26, taking note of its context. Genesis 1:26 reads, "Then God [elohim] said, `Let us make man in our image, in our likeness.'" I don't know Hebrew, so I can't tell if the verb said is singular or plural. If I could read Hebrew I would know this, and my questions would probably vanish.
But I do read English, and the pronouns here are plural. But does it automatically follow that elohim is plural? Before answering the question, I will ask another. Should we base our theology on one unusual verse or on more than 2,000 clear verses? What would lead to sound doctrine "” 2,000 sure witnesses or one enigmatic witness?
Genesis 1:26 is an enigmatic witness. It does not tell us why or to whom God is speaking. It does not say, "The Father said to the Son" or "God said to God" or "God said to the angels" or any other combination. Because the Bible remains silent as to whom and why God said what he said, any conclusions about these points would be conjectures, and therefore not a solid basis for doctrine. However, note that there are several possible conjectures that do not require the existence of more than one God for them to be true. Many commentaries will give you those explanations. You might think of some yourself.
Second, this is not the only verse that quotes God. As your study will show, many of those verses are God's revelation of himself to us in which he unambiguously says that there is but one God. Those other verses are the verses that should decide our doctrine "” the verses that unambiguously address the question.
Singular pronouns for elohim
Third, the context of the verse proves the plurality theory wrong. Genesis 1:27, the very next verse, reads "So elohim created man in his own image, in the image of God [elohim] he created him; male and female he created them" (emphasis mine throughout). Just as they are in the rest of the chapter, the pronouns here are singular. So we see that when elohim creates man, God reveals himself to be but one God.
As you do your study, you'll probably notice several other interesting facts about elohim. For example, it was elohim who said "I give you every seed-bearing plant" (verse 29). It was elohim who said, "I will make a helper suitable for him" (Genesis 2:18). Later elohim told Noah, "I am going to put an end to all people" and "This is the sign of the covenant I am establishing between me and you" (Genesis 6:13; 9:12).
A beautiful trait of elohim is that he never lies. He thundered to Israel, "I am the Lord your elohim....You shall have no other gods before me" (Exodus 20:2-3). Moses, the prophet of The God Who Does Not Lie, encouraged the Israelites to "acknowledge and take to heart this day that the Lord is elohim in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other" (Deuteronomy 4:39).
In the Bible, it was elohim who walked in the Garden, made a covenant with Abraham, wrestled with Jacob and spoke out of the burning bush. There was only one. It was elohim who thundered from Sinai, gave victory to Joshua, sanctified the Temple and spoke to the prophets.
This God, The God Who Does Not Lie, reveals himself to be the only God there is. "Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am elohim, and there is no other" (Isaiah 45:22). The God of truth says, "See now that I myself am he! There is no elohim besides me" (Deuteronomy 32:39).
Ralph Orr
Elohim Is Not Alone!
Elohim
Elohim
is not the only Hebrew noun that can be plural in form but singular in meaning. Such Hebrew noun forms are sometimes used for abstract nouns and as intensifiers. Gesenius' Hebrew Grammar devotes several pages to this subject. The following list is not exhaustive, but it illustrates the point. The masculine plural ending is im; oth is the feminine plural ending.
[blockquote]
zequnim "” old age (Gen. 21:2, 7; 37:3; 44:20).
ne`urim "” youth. David was only a boy (na`ar), but Goliath "has been a fighting man from his youth [ne`urim]" (1 Sam. 17:33).
chayyim "” life. This is used in the song "To life, to life, lechayyim" in Fiddler on the Roof.
gebhuroth "” strength. The singular form gebhurah is the usual word for strength, but the plural form is used in Job 41:12.
tsedaqoth "” righteousness. The singular form tsedaqah is the usual word, but tsedaqoth is used in Isaiah 33:15 "” "he who walks righteously [or "in righteousness"]."
chokmoth "” wisdom. Chokmah is the usual form, but chokmoth is used in Prov. 1:20.
'adonim "” lord. 'adon means "lord," and 'adonim normally means "lords," but Isa. 19:4 says, "I will hand the Egyptians over to the power of a cruel master ['adonim]."
behemoth. This word normally means beasts, but in Job 40:15 it refers to one animal.
[/blockquote]
Specifically discussing elohim, Gesenius observes: "The language has entirely rejected the idea of numerical plurality in 'elohim (whenever it denotes one God)....[This] is proved especially by its being almost invariably joined with a singular attribute" (such as a singular adjective or verb). For more information on the subject, consult Gesenius' Hebrew Grammar, pages 396-401, 1909 edition.
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The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. Zephaniah 1:14
פרץ
If one thinks his openion is equal to, or equivilentthe word of God, he may as well stop reading as Gods word has been replaced by his own wisdom and therefore he will argue with all that is said, qouted, and refered to from the only source of truth available, the Unadulterated, everlasting, word of God.
I asked you to cease reading the post if you could not except the scripture. It was a post of my openions, sorry if you think your belief denies me the right to my openion. Don't tell me to stop my openion right there, I don't answer to Chuck7. If you truly believe that the word needs no defending, that is great, just don't be a hyprocrite and attack me with your defense of the Trinity. If you believed what you said, you would not jump into every oneness discussion as you do without fail.
Your scriptures have been answered often enough for all to have the referance memorized. KB has already replied quite well with scripture.
I would suggest that if you want a post on the Trinity doctrine according to Chuck7, that you start one. I would like to see it layed out plainly to see exactly what you believe. That was the purpose of this thread, to set it out for all to see what I beleive about the oneness doctrine, not to see where you disagree.
The Godhead
