I am new but have been reading several post for the last several months. Now I have a very simple and straight forward question. Several of you believe that baptism is required for salvation and several don't. But everyone agrees that salvations is through Jesus Christ since He paid the price for our sins on the cross. So here is my question and the answer isvery very straigt forward and simple.
To the ones who say that baptism is required for salvation, does that me you blieve that to be saved is:
JESUS + BAPTISM??? or is it truly justJESUS???
This is a yes or no anwers, so don't try to hide your yes under a ton of opinions. Just answer yes or know.
For you see if you are saying that salvation is JESUS + Baptism, then you are saying that JESUS can't save us by Himself.
Edman, I believe what the Bible says concerning salvation. Of course I believe that Christ's blood alone is what saves us. The question is, how do we get into Christ? How do we contact His blood? Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Romans 6:3-5, Galatians 3:27, I Peter 3:21,I Corinthians 12:13, Acts 22:16
Do you believe we must hear the Word to be saved? If so, then using your own logic you are saying that Christ + hearing saves us. Do you believe we must believe the Word? Then you are saying Christ + believing saves us. Do you believe we must repent? Then you are saying that Christ + repentance saves us. Do you believe we must confess Christ before men to be saved? Then you are saying that Christ + confessing saves us.
If you believe we must do ANYTHING at all, then by your own logic you are saying that Christ alone can't save us.
On the other hand, if you believe that everyone is saved regardless of what they do or don't do, or a chosen few are saved regardless of what they do or don't do, then debate, study, preaching, teaching, etc. is pointless--our fate is sealed regardless, so what's the point?
The one question that I've asked time and again, that can never be answered logically or scripturally, is this: do we have to do something, or do we do absolutely nothing to be saved? If we have to do something--anything--then your same argument applies to anything we must do--hearing, believing, repenting, confessing--just like obeying the command to be baptized.
I don't believe God needs any help--no more than He needed Naaman's help in cleansing Naaman's leprosy--but I don't believe Naaman would have been cleansed if he hadn't obeyed. I don't believe God needed the children of Israel's help in bringing down the walls of Jericho--but I don't believe those walls would have fallen if they hadn't obeyed.
There's been tons of debate on this board, and tons of scriptures given. A simple search on "baptism" should bring it up, if you care to review it. Not opinions, plain and simple scriptures. Here's a link to one to get you started.
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"We can have no '50-50' allegiance in this country. Either a man is an American and nothing else, or he is not an American at all."-- Theodore Roosevelt
A wise man's heart is at his right hand; but a fool's heart at his left. Ecclesiasties 10:2
The last four letters in American..........I Can
The last four letters in Republican........I Can
The last four letters in Democrats.........Rats
Gods Word says we are saved by Grace through faith. So , Christ'sblood is sufficient ....... If you have faith, so then it is Christ's blood + Faith...... So no, Christs' blood alone is not enough..... if it was , then everyone , everywhere , would be saved, and no one would go to hell. But we know that is not true, because Christ died for all, who would believe..... so you must believe .... so by definition, believing is a work...... that must be done in order to be saved.
Gods Word says we are saved by Grace through faith. So , Christ'sblood is sufficient ....... If you have faith, so then it is Christ's blood + Faith...... So no, Christs' blood alone is not enough..... if it was , then everyone , everywhere , would be saved, and no one would go to hell. But we know that is not true, because Christ died for all, who would believe..... so you must believe .... so by definition, believing is a work...... that must be done in order to be saved.
MET
Ok, from what I understand in the Bible, Christ's IS enough and nothing more. However, even though He died for all and that all could be saved, all won't be saved. Why? Because some (many) will reject Him as means for their salvation. So this leads me to what LBR hinted on. Either we must do something or nothing. If we do nothing, then we go to hell even though the free gift of salvation is before us through Christ. So then we must do something. We can't work our way, so the only thing to do is believe Christ, trust Christ, live Christ, follow Christ, have faith in Christ, accept Christ, love Christ, strive to be like Christ and obey Christ.
We make things much too complicated with our "pet" doctrines. What is wrong with this openion? One is saved if he walks in the light that God has given to him. One is lost if he rebels and rejects the light given by God.
Since theEaster/passover season is upon us, someone refresh our memory. How many excaped Egypts bondage without obedience to Gods instructions? How many excaped without being baptized in the sea and in the cloud?
One word Answer....Jesus
"There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved" (Acts 4.12).
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It is God who has determined who will be saved. He also chose the means. Regenerated folks are saved by grace thru faith (Ephesians 2:8) "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ (romans 10:17). It is the gospel that "is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes"
Romans 8:29 says..."For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren."
Ephesians 1:4 says..." He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him" This is well before we are baptised, before we did anything good or bad. continuing on in verses 5-6 ......"He predestined us to adoption as sons through JesusChrist to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to thepraise of the glory of HIs grace, which He freely bestowed on us inthe Beloved."
He chose and predestined us according to his good pleasure and will, not ours.
John 1:13 says...."Born not of blood or the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man but of God"
To the person who asks "either we do something or nothing" I believe this answers your question. salvation is determined by Gods will not mans.
Grace is unmerited favor. It is Gods choice to elect or not.
Verse 11 says ..."we have obtained an inheritence, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will." You can see that this verse rules out the theory that God only predestined us because he knew we would believe. It is the purpose of His Will.
2Tim.1:9.....'Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,'
1Peter1:2....."Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."
2Thes2:13..."But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:"
1Pet.1:18...."Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
22Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through theSpirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.'
We are redeemed by the blood of Christ, we believe by him, and obey thru the Spirit. Born again by Gods word!
Michael, I think I understand what you are saying, but consider this. Nothing can add to Christ's blood. However, we have to come into contact with that blood. This is the best way I can think of to put it into easier to understand terms. Sin is a terminal disease. Christ's blood is the cure. We have to apply His blood to be cured--it's there, available to whoever wants it, but it won't just jump on you because you are there. Just like any medicine, you have to apply it as prescribed for it to work. You can sit a bucket of water next to a fire, but unless you throw the water on the fire it won't put out the flames.
Quote:
Either we must do something or nothing. If we do nothing, then we go to hell even though the free gift of salvation is before us through Christ. So then we must do something. We can't work our way, so the only thing to do is believe Christ, trust Christ, live Christ, follow Christ, have faith in Christ, accept Christ, love Christ, strive to be like Christ and obey Christ.
Exactly! One of those commands we must obey is the command to be baptized into Christ for the remission of sins. That doesn't mean we are working for salvation or trying to add anything to Christ's blood or what He did for us. It's simply applying the cure as prescribed.
Chad
__________________
"We can have no '50-50' allegiance in this country. Either a man is an American and nothing else, or he is not an American at all."-- Theodore Roosevelt
A wise man's heart is at his right hand; but a fool's heart at his left. Ecclesiasties 10:2
The last four letters in American..........I Can
The last four letters in Republican........I Can
The last four letters in Democrats.........Rats
Michael, I think I understand what you are saying, but consider this. Nothing can add to Christ's blood. However, we have to come into contact with that blood. This is the best way I can think of to put it into easier to understand terms. Sin is a terminal disease. Christ's blood is the cure. We have to apply His blood to be cured--it's there, available to whoever wants it, but it won't just jump on you because you are there. Just like any medicine, you have to apply it as prescribed for it to work. You can sit a bucket of water next to a fire, but unless you throw the water on the fire it won't put out the flames.
Quote:
Either we must do something or nothing. If we do nothing, then we go to hell even though the free gift of salvation is before us through Christ. So then we must do something. We can't work our way, so the only thing to do is believe Christ, trust Christ, live Christ, follow Christ, have faith in Christ, accept Christ, love Christ, strive to be like Christ and obey Christ.
Exactly! One of those commands we must obey is the command to be baptized into Christ for the remission of sins. That doesn't mean we are working for salvation or trying to add anything to Christ's blood or what He did for us. It's simply applying the cure as prescribed.
Chad
Chad,
I can work with that. It is basically the same thing I was trying to say , but perhaps better worded. But in the end, there are works. They will not save us, but they are there as evidence of our salvation..... Christ said so. Faith without works is dead. If you have the Faith ( a bucket of water ) , you will do the things Christ asked his beilevers to do ...... put out the fire ( literally Hell's fire ).
Faith, kindness, love, Baptism, witnessing, going to church .... your faith gives you Joy in these things.
And for those who don't believeone needs togo to church,..... what about being told to gather yourselves together..... or the idea that the Church is the bride of Christ and Christ is coming back for His Bride....
I for one feel terrible when I miss church.... It feels like I have a big hole in my heart....but thats just me.
I agree Michael--being baptized no more saves us in and of itself than dipping cured Naaman's leprosy, or building a boat saved Noah and his family, or marching and shouting and blowing trumpets brought down the walls of Jericho. God did the work, but only after the acts of obedience He commanded were obeyed exactly as He said.
I see it like the inheritance example I've used before. Someone you never did anything for dies and leaves you a fortune. You recieve the notification that it's there, yours for the taking, no strings attached. However, you still have to go to the lawyer's office and sign the paperwork before you can take possession of it. By signing those papers you have in no way earned or worked for that fortune--it's a free gift--butyou have tofollow the required proceeduresto recieve it.
It's there--it's yours--you can talk about it, proclaim it, tell everyone you have it, but until you follow the instructions it won't do you one bit of good. That's the way I see salvation--it's there, it's yours for the taking, but until you follow God's instructions on recieving it, it's not going to do you one bit of good.
Chad
__________________
"We can have no '50-50' allegiance in this country. Either a man is an American and nothing else, or he is not an American at all."-- Theodore Roosevelt
A wise man's heart is at his right hand; but a fool's heart at his left. Ecclesiasties 10:2
The last four letters in American..........I Can
The last four letters in Republican........I Can
The last four letters in Democrats.........Rats
We make things much too complicated with our "pet" doctrines. What is wrong with this openion? One is saved if he walks in the light that God has given to him. One is lost if he rebels and rejects the light given by God.
Since theEaster/passover season is upon us, someone refresh our memory. How many excaped Egypts bondage without obedience to Gods instructions? How many excaped without being baptized in the sea and in the cloud?
Hey snooky,
What are ya trying to do to us??? Make us have the Faith like a child , or something???
TO BE SAVED
