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Old 12-26-2007, 08:53 PM   #1
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Default Perseverance Of The Saints

I found this paper by Robert Shankand thought it interesting.



Unconditional Eternal Security (UES) is the belief that once an individual has been genuinely saved, he cannot, under any circumstances, lose his salvation. That is, he is eternally secure because all of his sins, both past and future, have been forgiven. This, in effect, means that once someone has been saved, he can fall into sin of any sort and still be saved. UES believers argue that a saved person will NOT fall into sin, such as drunkenness, but admit that if in the unlikely event that he does, then he remains saved but God disciplines him here on earth. What does the Bible say about this?

Jesus Christ brought us the New Covenant and, like all covenants, conditions must be met if the benefits are to be received. Throughout the New Testament, the word 'if' is used many times in association with salvation. When the conditions God sets by these 'ifs' are not met then an individual can't expect to receive the rewards, as God never makes idle claims.

THE CONDITIONAL WORD "IF"

Rom 8:12-14 clearly state that Christians have an obligation to keep from sin, through the power of the Holy Spirit, and the penalty for not doing so is death ..."Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation -but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live ..."

The following verses use the conditional word 'if' regarding salvation:
1 Cor 15:2 says that we are saved only if we hold to the Word.
Heb 3:6 says we are of God's house if we hold fast.
Heb 3:14 says we are partakers of Christ if we are steadfast to the end.
Heb 10:36-39 says that if the righteous (just) draw back they face destruction (perdition).

There is a conditional 'if' associated with salvation in each of these verses. In each case, believers must fulfil the condition in order to receive the promised reward. The condition is perseverance and the reward is eternal life.
Some say the word 'if' doesn't mean 'if' all the time but can sometimes mean 'since'. If we substitute 'since' for 'if,' then:
Rom 8:13 would read, "since you live according to your sinful nature, you will die; but since by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of your body, you will live." The verse no longer makes sense.
Heb 10:38 would say, "my righteous one will live by faith. And since he shrinks back, I will not be pleased with him."
Clearly, only 'if' makes sense in these two examples and both verses deny the Eternal Security of believers.

RECONCILED, SANCTIFIED & IN GRACE

If an individual is reconciled, sanctified or 'in grace' then he is unquestionably saved. The following verses speak of such individuals who have subsequently fallen, or can fall, from their position in the Lord.

Reconciled: Col 1:21-23 says, "Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now he has reconciled you by Christ"s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation - if you continue in your faith..." These verses speak of reconciled, born again believers who will be presented to God only if they continue in their faith. These individuals are saved, as a false or half-baked profession cannot bring about reconciliation with the Lord. Reconciled never means anything but being right with God ... saved.

Sanctified: Heb 10:26-29 says "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire ... a man deserves to be punished ... who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him ..." People here are warned that they can face judgment, even after having been "sanctified by the blood." Sanctification follows justification so the individuals alluded to here have been saved. If we fail to repent of our sin, to be cleansed by the blood of Jesus, then our heart will harden against the Spirit"s conviction. It will get more and more difficult to bring to the Lord for cleansing, and may lead to eventual salvation loss.

In Grace:
Gal 5:4 says "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace." The Jews spoken of here, having reverted to the Law of Moses, have been alienated from the Lord; they have fallen from Grace. Obviously they were once 'in Grace,' that is, they were once saved.

PERSEVERANCE
Perseverance in faith is required to reap the benefits of God's promises:
Rom 2:6-7 says that eternal life is the reward for the saints perseverance (patient continuance).
Heb 10:36 says we need to persevere to receive God's promises.
Rev 14:12 speaks of perseverance.
1 Tim 4:16 tells Timothy to persevere to save himself.
(The KJV uses the word patience. Webster's 1828 dictionary defines patience as perseverance)

Once again, in Rom 8:12-14, Paul gives clear warning to his brothers in Christ. This passage says that we are debtors and have an obligation to steadfastly keep from sin by the power of the Holy Spirit, otherwise we shall die. Verse 14 speaks of being 'led' by the Spirit. Being led doesn't mean that the Holy Spirit has us on a leash but that we voluntarily follow His leading. It's our responsibility to live by the Spirit otherwise we will die ... be lost. Also in Gal 6:7-8 and Gal 5:19-21 Paul is warning believers, for the second time, that they must live Godly lives if they wish to inherit the kingdom of God.

There is no doubt that we have assurance of salvation because of verses such as 1 John 5:13 & Jude 1:24 as well as the witness of the Spirit. However, we have a part to play in persevering. Persevering in faith is not works otherwise the confession and repentance required of us to be saved initially would also be works. Our initial trusting to be saved and the ongoing perseverance required of us are an internal "work"of the heart and mind (Note John 6:29 regarding the work of God). We are continually urged to keep from sin, to walk in the Spirit, to persevere in faith and so remain in Jesus. God"s Spirit works within us to will us to do this. He gives us the strength to abide in Jesus, as we willingly respond to His conviction. The Spirit does not force Himself upon us or cause us to act against our will. We must choose to remain in Jesus.

Rom 8:35-39
says that nothing in Creation can separate us from God's love, neither famine, sword, angels nor demons etc. These things are all external to us and things over which we have no control. God promises to keep us through these trials as clearly stated in Heb 13:5-6. However, these verses don't speak of the internal perseverance (our control of our will) required to walk in holiness through the Spirit. We have freedom of will to do this. God never controls our will, He wills us to do ... Phil 2:13.

THE FAILURE TO PERSEVERE WILL BRING JUDGMENT
Heb 6:4-6 speaks of people being unable to be brought back (renewed again) to repentance. They were clearly saved at one stage as they shared in the Holy Spirit who only dwells in believers, as stated in Act 5:32. To be brought back to repentance can only mean that they had been repentant in the first place. You can't be brought 'back' to a place that you have never been to, you can only be brought 'to' that place.

2 Pet 2:20-22
tells us of people facing judgment after having once known Jesus. They had escaped the pollution of the world through knowledge of Jesus (2 Pet 1:3), but have returned to the mire. If they are going back, then they must have left it in the first place. Only Jesus could have initially saved them from the corruption of the world to which they have returned, as Rom 8:7 makes clear.

In Matt 5:13 Jesus tells his disciples, who are the salt of the earth, that if they lose their saltiness they will be cast out. Only the saved are disciples of Jesus and He warned them against going back into the world.

John 15:6
speaks of branches cast into the fire because they failed to abide. Only a saved person is a branch in the Vine.

In Matt 10:32-33 Jesus tells the disciples that He will deny (disown) them if they deny Him. This is repeated in 2 Tim 2:12-13 where Paul says that if we endure (suffer) then we will reign with the Lord, but if we deny Him, He will deny us.

OTHER VERSES SHOWING THE POSSIBILITY OF SALVATION LOSS

2 Pet 3:17 urges us to take care of the secure position from which we can fall. The onus is on us. There would be no care about falling, nothing to guard against, if we go to heaven no matter what we do.

Jam 5:19-20
speaks of a brother becoming a sinner and being brought back to repentance, saving him from death. A human effort is involved here. God puts the responsibility on man. The prodigal son, in Luke 15, is an example of this; he had died (spiritually) and was made alive again, saving him from death. Heb 3:12-14 warns brothers not to turn from the living God but to hold firmly till the end.

Even Timothy is warned to watch himself and persevere in his life and doctrine to ensure his salvation (1 Tim 4:16).

In 1 Cor 9:27 and 2 Tim 4:7 Paul speaks of his efforts, fighting the good fight and keeping the faith, so that he wouldn't be castaway.

SOME OBJECTIONS ANSWERED
In Eph 5:18, we are told to be filled with the Spirit. From the Greek text, the word 'filled' is better translated 'continue to be filled.' Likewise, 'believe' in John 3:16 has a similar tense, meaning that we need to 'continue to believe' or 'go on believing' in order to receive eternal life. In other words, we must persevere in believing. Jesus made this obvious in John 15:6 when He said, "If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

In John 10:27-28 Jesus promises to protect those who hear and follow Him. Following requires an effort of will, it's not automatic. The verses speak directly of Jesus' power to protect the believer against anyone or any man plucking a disciple from His hand. He doesn't say that an individual can't leave of his own free will but that no person can snatch him from His hand. Jude 1:24 only tells us that Jesus is able to keep us from falling, not that He will, regardless of our actions.

Regarding being sealed with the Spirit: Scripture plainly says that the Holy Spirit is given to us as a witness and a guarantee of our salvation until the day of redemption ... Eph 1:13-14 & Rom 8:16. His Presence convicts us of sin, leading us to repentance and holy living " Rom 8:3-4 and Tit 3:4-8. However, Scripture also plainly says that if we fail to co-operate with the Spirit we will be lost ... Rom 8:12-13.

FINALLY
The 'ifs' in many verses and the simplicity of verses such as John 15:6 and Matt 5:13 cannot simply be ignored. Like the Israelites of old, obedience (following God's laws) is required to reap the benefits of a promise as stated in Isa 1:19-20. Note the clear warning, to the righteous, in Ezek 33:12-13. We are saved by Grace, through faith and to remain saved we must persevere in that faith to be kept from deliberate, ongoing sin or face a Christless eternity.

No one can live a sinless life but we must be kept from the type of sins which are listed in Gal 5:19-21. 1 John 2:1-2 says that Christians should not sin but if we do we are to take it to Jesus in repentance and He will forgive us and cleanse us of it as stated in 1 John 1:9. The word 'if' in this verse is critical ... if we don't confess, we won't be forgiven. The choice is ours. If anyone reading this has asked Jesus to be their Lord and Saviour but has unconfessed sin, please get on your knees and take it to Him in heartfelt repentance. He's waiting.

Jesus said, "he who stands firm to the end will be saved" Mark 13:13.

This article is a very limited discussion on Perseverance and the Once Saved Always Saved doctrine. Robert Shank's book, Life In The Son, is very detailed and probes the Greek texts to show clearly that the doctrine of Eternal Security is a false doctrine. While firmly believing in the Once Saved doctrine, Mr. Shank set out to prove it from the Greek texts but his belief was turned around. Even though it is an in-depth study, there is no need to have a knowledge of Greek to see the Biblical truth of a believer's need to persevere in order to inherit eternal life.
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Old 12-26-2007, 09:20 PM   #2
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Default RE: Perseverance Of The Saints

We've been freed from sin, not free to sin. Short and sweet!
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Old 12-26-2007, 10:17 PM   #3
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Default RE: Perseverance Of The Saints

Salvation is the free gift of God. If we had to work to keep it " it would not be a free gift " and God would be a liar!

" the GIFT of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23

"by the righteousness of one THE FREE GIFT came upon all men unto justification of life." Romans 5:18
My children will always be my children. We may have troubled times. Our fellowship may be broken, but our relationship can never be broken. They will always be my children. Nothing or nobody can change that! And once you are born again spiritually " God becomes your Father " nothing or nobody can change that! Your fellowship may be broken, but your relationship can never be broken!


"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, SHALL BE ABLE TO SEPARATE US from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:38
Paul goes to great lengths to express that we can't lose our salvation. How can anyone honestly believe that ourselves is not covered in this statement.

"My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." John 10:29
We are the Fathers gift to the Son. No man includes ourselves.
[blockquote][/blockquote]
When the Bible speaks of possessing eternal life, it speaks in the present tense (hath, have, etc.) " SOMETHING WE ALREADY HAVE! If we had to work or endure to keep our salvation, this could not be true.

"He that believeth on the Son HATH EVERLASTING LIFE:.. ." John 3:36

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that YE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE,. . ." 1 John 5:13

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, HATH EVERLASTING LIFE,. . ." John 5:24

We are "perfected for ever" by Jesus Christ. How could the Lord say such a bold statement if we had to earn or keep our salvation?


"By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL. . . For by one offering he hath PERFECTED FOR EVER them that are sanctified." Hebrews 10:10,14
[/i]
"Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED IN JESUS CHRIST, and called:" Jude 1


"Who are KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." 1 Peter 1:5

"Now unto him that is able TO KEEP YOU from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy," Jude 24

"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby YE ARE SEALED unto the day of redemption." Ephesians 4:30
not might or if...but ARE SEALED

"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so as by fire." 1 Corinthians 3:11-15


". . .after that ye believed, YE WERE SEALED with that holy Spirit of promise," Ephesians 1:13

1 Corinthians 5 reports of an awful sin in the church. And even though Paul commands ". . . To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh" " Paul still speaks of that person being saved ".

This is a first hand account of a backslidden believer commiting awful sins. Yet Pauls message is as clear as can be. If one can lose their salavation by sinning why didn't this person.


"It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. . .To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit MAY BE SAVED in the day of the Lord Jesus." 1 Corinthians 5:1,5
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Old 12-26-2007, 10:57 PM   #4
 
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This topic has been bothering me for awhile now. Not shaking my faith, but just nagging at my mind. Are we saved to persevere or do we persevere to be saved? In John 3:16 isn't "whosoever BELIEVES" in the original Greek a tense we don't have in English...that I can also be translated "whosoever is believing"? Why does Paul warn the churches of a falling away? You can fall away from something you didn't have or weren't in.

The comes predestination and election. Personally, you can't convince me that such a thing doesn't exist...it's right there...black and white...and what IS it and what is it's nature what does it look like (not literally)...how does it work. Those are the questions. If we set that aside for a moment where does the Calvinist view stand?
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Old 12-27-2007, 08:10 AM   #5
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Quote:
This is a first hand account of a backslidden believer commiting awful sins. Yet Pauls message is as clear as can be. If one can lose their salavation by sinning why didn't this person.


"It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. . .To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit MAY BE SAVED in the day of the Lord Jesus." 1 Corinthians 5:1,5
I think that your own emphasis "MAY BE SAVED" , is also the undoing of the take you have. You claim this person is a backslidden believer . . .meaning that he was saved and fell away. Then you speak of being saved in the future tense. Also it seems that your viewing "may be saved" as "will be saved". What I'm seeing "may be saved" to say is akin to "might be saved"

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,


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Old 12-27-2007, 09:42 AM   #6
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Default RE: Perseverance Of The Saints

As Bro Mac has pointed out, the wording of the scripture is often either, overlooked, or purposely misrepresented for advantage.

" the GIFT of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23

"by the righteousness of one THE FREE GIFT came upon all men unto justification of life." Romans 5:18

These two passages were quoted to prove individualpredestination from before the world was. To used them as presented, without concideration of the remainder of the word of God, would prove beyound a shadow of a doubt that not one single person will ever be lost. Read it; the gift is eternal life, and CAME, (past tense) upon ALL, (every person ever born) men.
No one that I know of denies predestination as the bible plainly states. The issue is not does the bible teach predestination, but how does the bible teach predestination. The issue isn't based upon the dozen or so scriptures that keep being used to prove that predestination is mentioned, the issue is based upon the remaining 66 books that are equally as important, and exposes the errors of mis-interpretation of a few "selected" passages.
The arguement that one must be enlightened by the "Spirit" in order to understand the spiritual thing of God, isn't an issue either. The issue is, does the Word and the Spirit agree? Does God say one thing in the written word, and speak something opposite through the Spirit? In other words, Does God lie?
One MUST rightly devide the Word of Truth.
My children will always be my children also, but if they don't maintain a good relationship, "Dear old Dad", will cut them out of his will.

quote
When the Bible speaks of possessing eternal life, it speaks in the present tense (hath, have, etc.) " SOMETHING WE ALREADY HAVE! If we had to work or endure to keep our salvation, this could not be true.

Does this mean, as you imply, that Gods word lied when the scripture said, "He that endureth unto the end SHALL be saved"?
SHALL is future tense, is it not?
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Old 12-27-2007, 08:49 PM   #7
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Default RE: Perseverance Of The Saints

Quote:
ORIGINAL: Leafrivermac

Quote:
This is a first hand account of a backslidden believer commiting awful sins. Yet Pauls message is as clear as can be. If one can lose their salavation by sinning why didn't this person.


"It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. . .To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit MAY BE SAVED in the day of the Lord Jesus." 1 Corinthians 5:1,5
I think that your own emphasis "MAY BE SAVED" , is also the undoing of the take you have. You claim this person is a backslidden believer . . .meaning that he was saved and fell away. Then you speak of being saved in the future tense. Also it seems that your viewing "may be saved" as "will be saved". What I'm seeing "may be saved" to say is akin to "might be saved"
"...when we were dead in sins hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus." - Ephesians 2:5,6
Like it or not this is a saved man here and was already seated in heaven and sealed by the Holy Spirit.

"In whom you also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory." -Ephesians 1:13-14


The Bible paints people without makeup and shows warts and all. Abraham was a liar. Moses had a terrible temper. Jacob was a crook. David was an adulterer, the disciples ran away, and Paul"s letters to the churches were mostly rebukes and instructions for saved people to do better.
But they were saved. And secure. In Christ.
David said it like this: "Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin." - Romans 4:7,8
Unfaithful believers can lose joy, rewards, health, temporal blessings - even physical life. God disciplines his children. But the children are never cast out. We have God"s word on it.

And in light of thefollowing verses. Don't you fellows find it abit difficult trying tokeep savedby your trying to keep the law

James 2:10, "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all."

Gal. 3:10, "For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.'"



1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
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Old 12-28-2007, 08:51 AM   #8
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Default RE: Perseverance Of The Saints

Jesus said, "Be faithful until death and I will give you the crown of life" (Rev 2:10).
Paul wrote along similar lines... "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith. Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award me on that day, and not only to me but to all who have loved his appearing" (2Tm 4:7).

What Happens if I'm not faithfull until Death ?
What Course and What Fight did Paul Finished ?
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Old 12-28-2007, 08:04 PM   #9
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: Kosherboy

Jesus said, "Be faithful until death and I will give you the crown of life" (Rev 2:10).
Paul wrote along similar lines... "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith. Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award me on that day, and not only to me but to all who have loved his appearing" (2Tm 4:7).

What Happens if I'm not faithfull until Death ?
What Course and What Fight did Paul Finished ?
You can't help but to be faithful til death because the Lord keeps you faithful.

Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED IN JESUS CHRIST, and called:" Jude 1

"And THE LORD. . . WILL PRESERVE ME unto his heavenly kingdom:. . ." 2 Timothy 4:18

"Who are KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." 1 Peter 1:5

"Now unto him that is able TO KEEP YOU from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy," Jude 24

But I cannot help but wonder that if our salvation depends upon us remaining faithful and or being obedient, then are we not keeping our salvation by our good works? That's right, by being good and risking works righteousness?

Again, if a person says he stays saved by remaining faithful and or being obedient to God, then isn't he saying that he is maintaining his salvation bygood works ? It is a good thing to be faithful to God. It is a good thing to obey God. But is this how we are saved or stay saved? Does our salvation rest in anyway on how good we are?

James 2:10
"For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all."

Gal. 3:10
"For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.'"

If anyone were to try and maintain his salvation by being faithful/good, is he then required to keep the whole law?
I believe that those who seek to remain faithful and obedient to God in order to stay saved would say that they are not trying to maintain their salvation by their works, their faithfulness, their obedience, etc. At least I hope not. But, isn't a law an instruction given by God that has a punishment for disobeying it? God commands everyone everywhere to repent, Acts 17:30. In Exodus 20, God commands that we believe in him. Can it be said that the command to believe and repent are laws since disobeying them has penalties? Do you see the problem?
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