This is a paper by E G Bass . . .
[hr] The question has been asked, "If the Lord Jesus Christ was God, why did he pray to the Father?" We teach by the word of God that there is ONE GOD, the creator of the heavens and the earth and all mankind, manifest to mankind as Father (Creator), Son (Saviour), and the Holy Spirit (Indwelling spirit). We believe and teach that there is but ONE GOD with three manifestations. "For there are three that bear record" in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost: and these three are ONE" (I Jn. 5:7). It does not say that they agree or work as one but that they are ONE. The Name of the ONE TRUE GOD is Jesus Christ (Matt. 28:19, Acts 2:38). Jesus is the Father, Jesus is the Son, Jesus is the Holy Ghost.
Now in asking the question, "Why did Jesus pray to the Father?" the Trinitarians try to prove that there is more than one in the Godhead. In this question they see Jesus, the Son, the second person, praying to the Father, the final person in the Godhead.
Briefly let me bring in at this point the doctrine of the Trinity. This doctrine was the result of the Council of Nicea which was called by Constantine , the first Christian emperor of the Roman Empire. This council was called to settle the question of the Godhead , and the result was the doctrine of the Trinity. Briefly the doctrine is: "The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God." "And yet they are not three Gods but one God," but "these three persons, being truly distinct one from another."
Also in this "trinity" of persons the son is begotten of the Father by an eternal generation, and the Holy Spirit proceeds by an eternal pro- cession from the Father and the Son, yet not withstanding they differ as to origin, the persons are co-eternal and co-equal, all alike are uncreated and omnipotent."
This doctrine of the Trinity is nowhere to be found in the Bible. The Word of God plainly teaches THREE MANIFESTATIONS OF ONE GOD, not three persons or Gods. Nowhere in the Word of God can you find these words, "Trinity", "three persons", or "Holy Three." These are terms used by men to turn the hearts of men from the truth of God and who He is. Basically the doctrine of the Trinity has not changed since the council of Nicea.
When we say that Jesus is the ONE TRUE GOD and beside Him there is no other the Trinitarian will ask this question, "Why did Jesus pray to the Father? They often say, "If Jesus is God then He prayed to himself." I will do my best to answer these questions.
First, let me ask the Trinitarian a question. Their doctrine states that the Father and the Son are two persons and that they are separate and distinct one from the other, yet they are coeternal and co-equal. In simple language this means that the Father has no more power than the Son and likewise the Son has no more power than the Father. The Father was not before the Son or the Son was not before the Father. Now the question I will ask is this: "If the Father and Son are co-equal , why did the Son pray to the Father?" You pray to someone because you need help, If the Son is co-equal, with the Father he had no need to pray to Him for help because he has just as much power and might. Please think, Mr. ***********, before you ask such a question.
It is accepted everywhere that Jesus is the Son (Matt. 1:23-25). But let us prove that Jesus is the Father as well as the Son. "For unto us a child is born , unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace." (Isa. 9:6) Some say we are foolish to call Jesus both Father and Son, but this scripture calls him Father and Son in the same verse. A child would be born, a son given, but he would be called the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father. Jesus declared that He and the Father are one (Jn. 10:30). He does not say they work as one or agree as one, but He plainly states that they ARE one. Philip asked Jesus to show the disciples the Father in John 14:7-10. Jesus told Philip, "Have I been so long time with you and yet hast thou not known me, Philip. He that hath seen me hath seen the Father ; and how sayest thou then shew us the Father?" Some will say then if Jesus is the Son and also the Father then He prayed to Himself. lt would not be unscriptural to say this. Before you go up in Holy Smoke let us look at the Word of God. There is nothing unscriptural about the statement for in Heb. 6:13 we find "when God made promise to Abraham because He could swear by no greater, He swore by himself?" Did not God swear by himself? In Eph. 5:25-27 we read where Jesus presents the church to himself.
Let us look at it in its true light. God is a spirit and we know by the word of God that a spirit has not flesh and bone. He created all things. This makes him Father. This same God manifested himself to the world as a Son. "But when the fullness of time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law" (Gal: 4:4) The Son was made. "Wherefore when He cometh unto the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body has thou prepared me." God would come to redeem fallen man so He prepared a body in the virgin Mary and got into that body and came to us to be our Saviour. This manifestation of God in mankind was called the Son. Not another, but God himself manifested in flesh. (Isa. 7:14, Matt. 1:22,23). This son was Emmanuel. "God with us." This was the child to be born and the Son to be given, yet He was the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father (Isa. 9:6). The Son was the mystery of Godliness being revealed to mankind; God manifested in flesh (1 Tim. 3:16). This was God becoming flesh and dwelling among us (John l:l,14).
He prayed because as Son he took on himself the form of man and in taking on the form of man he took on himself a human nature (not a fallen nature!) Please read Phil. 2:5-8. In taking on this nature he could hunger, thirst, become tired, could cry, and could even die. But one of the principle characteristics of the human nature is that it must pray. There is something within all men that cries out for them to pray whether they do or not. So Christ in his humanity prayed unto the eternal Spirit. Now even as God took these human characteristics on himself when He came into this world, even so He laid them aside in His resurrection, and we no longer know Him after the flesh (II Cor. 5:16). Paul said we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we Him no more. After His resurrection we know him as Thomas found Him, "My Lord, and my God" (Jn. 20:28). We know Him as John saw Him on the isle of Patmos, as the Almighty (Rev. 1:7,8). As the first and last (Rev. 1:17,18). If Jesus is the first and last there can be room for no other. We know Him now as King of Kings and LORD OF LORDS (Rev. 19:16).
__________________ And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
It's a good article with the exception of quoting 1 John 5;7 which is a verse that was added , it doesn't exist in the Septuagin.
"For there are three that bear record" in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost: and these three are ONE" (I Jn. 5:7
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The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. Zephaniah 1:14
פרץ
It's a good article with the exception of quoting 1 John 5;7 which is a verse that was added , it doesn't exist in the Septuagin.
"For there are three that bear record" in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost: and these three are ONE" (I Jn. 5:7
You're correct in stating that the verse does not appear in the Septuagint. The Septuagint is a translationinto Greek of the Old Testament. 1 John does not appear in the Septuagint nor does any other part of the New Testament.
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Proud parents of our own "Daddy's Little Girls"
I heard Jesus He drank wine and I bet we'd get along just fine.
Well Brother Alex, the thing is that 1John 5:7 did make it's way into the KJV. I think Bro Bass explained it in a way that is consistant with the rest of Scripture. I would do the same as it is in the KJV.
However, there is practically unanimous agreement among Bible scholars that this view is really not part of the Bible at all! All major translations since the KJV have omitted it, including the RSV, The Amplified Bible, and the NIV. So does the generally accepted Greek text (Nestles Text). The NIV renders 1John 5:7 as "For there are three that testify: the Spirit, the water, and the blood: and these three are in agreement."
The KJV included verse 7 only because the 1522 edition of the Greek text compiled by Erasmus included it. Originally Erasmus had excluded this passage from his editions of 1516 and 1519 because it was not in any[/i] of 5,000 Greek manuscripts but only in late manuscripts of the Vulgate[/i]- the Latin version then used by the Roman Catholic Church. When the Catholic Church put pressure on Erasmus to include this verse, he promised to do so if they could find even one Greek manuscript that had it. They finally produced one, so Erasmus reluctantly added the verse even tho the manuscript so produced dated from 1520. (See Norman Geisler and William Nix, A General Introduction to the Bible[/i], Chicago: Moody Press, 1968, 370.) From this evidence , it seems plausible that some overzealous copyist saw "there are three that testify" and decided to insert a little teaching of his own. Certainly, the passage in question is completely unrelated to the rest of John"s discussion here and interrupts the flow of his logical argument.
__________________ And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
First, let me ask the Trinitarian a question. Their doctrine states that the Father and the Son are two persons and that they are separate and distinct one from the other, yet they are coeternal and co-equal. In simple language this means that the Father has no more power than the Son and likewise the Son has no more power than the Father. The Father was not before the Son or the Son was not before the Father. Now the question I will ask is this: "If the Father and Son are co-equal , why did the Son pray to the Father?" You pray to someone because you need help, If the Son is co-equal, with the Father he had no need to pray to Him for help because he has just as much power and might. Please think, Mr. Trinitarian, before you ask such a question.
He insults the trinitarians here and yet it directly implicates his own view. If they are all the same exact person, then there would be no need for Jesus (God) to pray to the Father (God). He never does answer the question he asks. I read the entire thread and "answer" he offers about Jesus' humanity does nothing to answer the question about why God would need to pray to God.
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Today' s small bucks are tomorrow' s trophies.
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I don't see how he insulted anyone or I would'nt have posted it. But he did answer the question, you just refuse to see it I guess. The answer is that in His deity Jesus had no need to pray and no one to pray to. Christ prayed in His humanity. But I will remove what you may consider to be an offensive term ???[8D]
__________________ And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
The question has been asked, "If the Lord Jesus Christ was God, why did he pray to the Father?" We teach by the word of God that there is ONE GOD, the creator of the heavens and the earth and all mankind, manifest to mankind as Father (Creator), Son (Saviour), and the Holy Spirit (Indwelling spirit). We believe and teach that there is but ONE GOD with three manifestations. "For there are three that bear record" in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost: and these three are ONE" (I Jn. 5:7). It does not say that they agree or work as one but that they are ONE. The Name of the ONE TRUE GOD is Jesus Christ (Matt. 28:19, Acts 2:38). Jesus is the Father, Jesus is the Son, Jesus is the Holy Ghost.
Now in asking the question, "Why did Jesus pray to the Father?" the Trinitarians try to prove that there is more than one in the Godhead. In this question they see Jesus, the Son, the second person, praying to the Father, the final person in the Godhead.
Briefly let me bring in at this point the doctrine of the Trinity. This doctrine was the result of the Council of Nicea which was called by Constantine , the first Christian emperor of the Roman Empire. This council was called to settle the question of the Godhead , and the result was the doctrine of the Trinity. Briefly the doctrine is: "The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God." "And yet they are not three Gods but one God," but "these three persons, being truly distinct one from another."
Also in this "trinity" of persons the son is begotten of the Father by an eternal generation, and the Holy Spirit proceeds by an eternal pro- cession from the Father and the Son, yet not withstanding they differ as to origin, the persons are co-eternal and co-equal, all alike are uncreated and omnipotent."
This doctrine of the Trinity is nowhere to be found in the Bible. The Word of God plainly teaches THREE MANIFESTATIONS OF ONE GOD, not three persons or Gods. Nowhere in the Word of God can you find these words, "Trinity", "three persons", or "Holy Three." These are terms used by men to turn the hearts of men from the truth of God and who He is. Basically the doctrine of the Trinity has not changed since the council of Nicea.
When we say that Jesus is the ONE TRUE GOD and beside Him there is no other the Trinitarian will ask this question, "Why did Jesus pray to the Father? They often say, "If Jesus is God then He prayed to himself." I will do my best to answer these questions.
First, let me ask the Trinitarian a question. Their doctrine states that the Father and the Son are two persons and that they are separate and distinct one from the other, yet they are coeternal and co-equal. In simple language this means that the Father has no more power than the Son and likewise the Son has no more power than the Father. The Father was not before the Son or the Son was not before the Father. Now the question I will ask is this: "If the Father and Son are co-equal , why did the Son pray to the Father?" You pray to someone because you need help, If the Son is co-equal, with the Father he had no need to pray to Him for help because he has just as much power and might. Please think, Mr. ***********, before you ask such a question.
41And he was withdrawn from them about a stone"s cast, and kneeled down, and prayed, 42Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
Well the fact is people pray to God for a variety of reasons. Some to praise him, some to ask his will be done in a matter. Some times I pray just for the fellowship and closeness I feel toward my God. Do you really believe that Jesus was helpless? The answer here is right in the verse, Jesus asked for the Fathers will be done, not His will. We've been thru this before, in order to have two separate wills at the same time (carrying on a communication) you obviously need two separate beings. But Oneness belivers would have you believe that Jesus was not the only begotten Son of the Father, but rather the Father pretending to be a Son while praying to himself. Of course God is not capable nor does he desire to decieve us like this. God is not the author of confusion. Using co-equal as an argument is illogical and again shows there is no acceptable or sensible reason why Jesus would pray to himself. Do you only pray to God when you want something???
It is accepted everywhere that Jesus is the Son (Matt. 1:23-25). But let us prove that Jesus is the Father as well as the Son. "For unto us a child is born , unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace." (Isa. 9:6) Some say we are foolish to call Jesus both Father and Son, but this scripture calls him Father and Son in the same verse. A child would be born, a son given, but he would be called the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father. Jesus declared that He and the Father are one (Jn. 10:30).
Oneness Pentecostal believers deny the Trinity and teach that Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit are all one person. They sometimes quote Isaiah 9:6 in their attempt to prove their position. However Isaiah 9:6, cannot be used to disprove the trinity nor bolster their oneness doctrine.
When Isaiah 9:6 says that Jesus' name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, etc., it is not saying that Jesus is the eternal Father, but that he has the characteristics of God. In other words, Jesus has all the attributes of God, including eternality.
In the ancient Jewish culture, names had meanings. We can better understand this by noting American Indian names such as "Running wolf" or "Fighting Bear." The same with Jewish names. They had meanings. Isaac, for example, means "laughter." Noah means "rest" or "peace." So, when Isaiah is speaking of the name of the coming Messiah and says his name will be Mighty God, Eternal Father, etc, it is telling us about the characteristics of the Messiah to come in a prophetic manner.
If Jesus' name is "Eternal Father," then why don't we call Jesus "Eternal Father"? For that matter, why don't we call his name "Wonderful counselor," or "Mighty God," or "Prince of Peace"? The text speaks of a name, yet has four things revealed in the name. Again, this shows us that it is the characteristics of the then-coming Messiah. The fact that the Messiah would be divine is verified in Hebrews 1:3 , when it says, "And He [Jesus] is the radiance of His [God] glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power..." This also explains why Jesus said, "...He who has seen Me has seen the Father," . It was because Jesus so precisely represented God the Father as His prophesied name reveals. Furthermore, the oneness Pentecostal people assert that God's name is really "Jesus." But, if that is true, and if Jesus is the eternal Father as they claim, then why don't they call Jesus "The Eternal Father" as His name? Does it also mean that the mode that God is in right now is that of the Father since His name is "Eternal Father" implying He is always the Father. If that is taken literally, then God is the eternal Father, and the true person of the Godhead is the Father, not the Son as the Oneness people assert.
The oneness Pentecostal theology is incorrect and improperly describes the true and living God. Funny, whenit serves their purpose oneness advocates tell usthe Father Son and Holy Ghost are not names but descriptions.But now they turn aroundwhen it serves them and tell us no they are not descriptions they arenames.
He does not say they work as one or agree as one, but He plainly states that they ARE one. Philip asked Jesus to show the disciples the Father in John 14:7-10. Jesus told Philip, "Have I been so long time with you and yet hast thou not known me, Philip. He that hath seen me hath seen the Father ; and how sayest thou then shew us the Father?" Some will say then if Jesus is the Son and also the Father then He prayed to Himself. lt would not be unscriptural to say this. Before you go up in Holy Smoke let us look at the Word of God. There is nothing unscriptural about the statement for in Heb. 6:13 we find "when God made promise to Abraham because He could swear by no greater, He swore by himself?" Did not God swear by himself? In Eph. 5:25-27 we read where Jesus presents the church to himself.
Let us look at it in its true light. God is a spirit and we know by the word of God that a spirit has not flesh and bone. He created all things. This makes him Father. This same God manifested himself to the world as a Son. "But when the fullness of time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law" (Gal: 4:4) The Son was made. "Wherefore when He cometh unto the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body has thou prepared me." God would come to redeem fallen man so He prepared a body in the virgin Mary and got into that body and came to us to be our Saviour. This manifestation of God in mankind was called the Son. Not another, but God himself manifested in flesh. (Isa. 7:14, Matt. 1:22,23). This son was Emmanuel. "God with us." This was the child to be born and the Son to be given, yet He was the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father (Isa. 9:6). The Son was the mystery of Godliness being revealed to mankind; God manifested in flesh (1 Tim. 3:16). This was God becoming flesh and dwelling among us (John l:l,14).
He prayed because as Son he took on himself the form of man and in taking on the form of man he took on himself a human nature (not a fallen nature!) Please read Phil. 2:5-8. In taking on this nature he could hunger, thirst, become tired, could cry, and could even die. But one of the principle characteristics of the human nature is that it must pray. There is something within all men that cries out for them to pray whether they do or not. So Christ in his humanity prayed unto the eternal Spirit. Now even as God took these human characteristics on himself when He came into this world, even so He laid them aside in His resurrection,
Ifone thinksthat Jesus' flesh was at odds with His own presence as the Father in heaven, then again we have no true incarnation. And with no true incarnation the crucifiction would have been in vain and saved no man. Here we see how illogical oneness can get, and how one error begets another.
and we no longer know Him after the flesh (II Cor. 5:16). Paul said we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we Him no more. After His resurrection we know him as Thomas found Him, "My Lord, and my God" (Jn. 20:28). We know Him as John saw Him on the isle of Patmos, as the Almighty (Rev. 1:7,8). As the first and last (Rev. 1:17,18). If Jesus is the first and last there can be room for no other. We know Him now as King of Kings and LORD OF LORDS (Rev. 19:16).
[align=center]What are the qualities and attributes of being a person?[/align][ol]A person exists and has identity. A person is aware of his own existence and identity.
[ol]This precludes the condition of being unconscious. [/ol] A self aware person will use such a statement as "I am", "me", "mine", etc. A person can recognize the existence of other persons.
This is true provided there were other persons around him or her. Such recognition would include the use of such statements as "you are", "you", "yours", etc. [/ol] A person possesses a will.
A will is the capability of conscious choice, decision, intention, desire, and or purpose.
[ol][/ol] A single person cannot have two separate and distinct wills at the same time on the exact same subject.
Regarding the exact same subject, a person can desire/will one thing at one moment and another at a different moment. Separate and simultaneous wills imply separate and simultaneous persons.
[ol][/ol] A person has the ability to communicate -- under normal conditions. Persons do not need to have bodies.
God the Father possesses personhood without a body, as do the angels. Biblically speaking, upon death we are "absent from the body and home with the Lord".
[ol][/ol]
[ol][/ol] God qualifies as having personhood in that He exists, is self aware, has identity, uses terms such as "Me", "I AM", "My", and possesses a will.
The question now becomes whether or not there is more than one "person" in the Godhead.
[align=center]"Let this cup pass from Me."[/align][blockquote][align=left]"And he was withdrawn from them about a stone"s cast, and kneeled down, and prayed, 42Saying, 'Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done'" ..luke 22:42.[/align][align=left]"And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, 'O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt'" (Math. 26:39).[/align][/blockquote] InbothLuke andMath. (which are parallel passages), the context is Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane, right before His betrayal. He was praying to the Father about the ordeal He was about to undergo. Several points are worth bringing out here.
First, in this passage, Jesus addresses the Father. He says, "Oh my Father..." Note that Jesus says "my" and "Father." These two words designate a "me and you" relationship.
Second, "If it be possible" is Jesus expressing a desire, a hope. What is that hope or desire? It is that "this cup pass from me." The cup Jesus is speaking of is the immanent ordeal of betrayal, scourging, and crucifixion. Jesus did not want to go through this. He was expressing His desire. It was His will not to undergo the severe ordeal ahead of Him. If this was not so, He would not have expressed the desire to have the cup pass from Him.
Third, in Matt., Jesus says, "Nevertheless., not my will, but thine, be done." InLuke he says, "Nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt." With this, Jesus is expressing His will and contrasting it to the will of the Father. Yet, He is stating that even though He does not want to undergo what lay ahead, "Nevertheless," He would submit to the will of the Father -- and not his own will.
This shows that the person of Jesus had a separate and different will than the Father. Since we have two separate wills, we have two separate and simultaneous persons and Oneness Pentecostal theology is incorrect.
Why Did Jesus Pray If He Was God ?
