Sometimes the answer isn"™t simple

[mr-pirk]

One of the mysteries of the Bible I have been trying to reconcile is this:

"Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sins"�.

With:
Exodus 20:5
You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

The answer is found in:
Jeremiah 3:25
Let us lie down in our shame, and let our disgrace cover us. We have sinned against the LORD our God, both we and our fathers; from our youth till this day we have not obeyed the LORD our God.

The events of Jeremiah"™s ministries centers on the exile of Israel to Babylon. Israel was being punished for worshiping idols/false gods.
The 3rd and 4th generations were punished by being made into slaves.

The afore-mentioned is easy enough to understand, till we look at:

2 Samuel 21
1 During the reign of David, there was a famine for three successive years; so David sought the face of the LORD. The LORD said, "It is on account of Saul and his blood-stained house; it is because he put the Gibeonites to death."
2 The king summoned the Gibeonites and spoke to them. (Now the Gibeonites were not a part of Israel but were survivors of the Amorites; the Israelites had sworn to spare them, but Saul in his zeal for Israel and Judah had tried to annihilate them.) 3 David asked the Gibeonites, "What shall I do for you? How shall I make amends so that you will bless the LORD's inheritance?"
4 The Gibeonites answered him, "We have no right to demand silver or gold from Saul or his family, nor do we have the right to put anyone in Israel to death."
"What do you want me to do for you?" David asked.
5 They answered the king, "As for the man who destroyed us and plotted against us so that we have been decimated and have no place anywhere in Israel, 6 let seven of his male descendants be given to us to be killed and exposed before the LORD at Gibeah of Saul"”the Lord 's chosen one."
So the king said, "I will give them to you."
7 The king spared Mephibosheth son of Jonathan, the son of Saul, because of the oath before the LORD between David and Jonathan son of Saul. 8 But the king took Armoni and Mephibosheth, the two sons of Aiah's daughter Rizpah, whom she had borne to Saul, together with the five sons of Saul's daughter Merab, whom she had borne to Adriel son of Barzillai the Meholathite. 9 He handed them over to the Gibeonites, who killed and exposed them on a hill before the LORD. All seven of them fell together; they were put to death during the first days of the harvest, just as the barley harvest was beginning.

That in comparison with:

2 Kings 14:6
"œYet he did not put the sons of the assassins to death, in accordance with what is written in the Book of the Law of Moses where the LORD commanded: "Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sins."

The afore-mentioned are actions committed by men.

Then there is this:

1 Kings 14
1 At that time Abijah son of Jeroboam became ill, 2 and Jeroboam said to his wife, "Go, disguise yourself, so you won't be recognized as the wife of Jeroboam. Then go to Shiloh. Ahijah the prophet is there"”the one who told me I would be king over this people. 3 Take ten loaves of bread with you, some cakes and a jar of honey, and go to him. He will tell you what will happen to the boy." 4 So Jeroboam's wife did what he said and went to Ahijah's house in Shiloh.
Now Ahijah could not see; his sight was gone because of his age. 5 But the LORD had told Ahijah, "Jeroboam's wife is coming to ask you about her son, for he is ill, and you are to give her such and such an answer. When she arrives, she will pretend to be someone else."
6 So when Ahijah heard the sound of her footsteps at the door, he said, "Come in, wife of Jeroboam. Why this pretense? I have been sent to you with bad news. 7 Go, tell Jeroboam that this is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'I raised you up from among the people and made you a leader over my people Israel. 8 I tore the kingdom away from the house of David and gave it to you, but you have not been like my servant David, who kept my commands and followed me with all his heart, doing only what was right in my eyes. 9 You have done more evil than all who lived before you. You have made for yourself other gods, idols made of metal; you have provoked me to anger and thrust me behind your back.
10 " 'Because of this, I am going to bring disaster on the house of Jeroboam. I will cut off from Jeroboam every last male in Israel"”slave or free. I will burn up the house of Jeroboam as one burns dung, until it is all gone. 11 Dogs will eat those belonging to Jeroboam who die in the city, and the birds of the air will feed on those who die in the country. The LORD has spoken!'
12 "As for you, go back home. When you set foot in your city, the boy will die. 13 All Israel will mourn for him and bury him. He is the only one belonging to Jeroboam who will be buried, because he is the only one in the house of Jeroboam in whom the LORD, the God of Israel, has found anything good.

The answer I would like to use for "œWhen you set foot in your city, the boy will die"� could be explained by pointing out that the bible never said God struck the boy with his illness.

But then there is this:

2 Samuel 12
1 The LORD sent Nathan to David. When he came to him, he said, "There were two men in a certain town, one rich and the other poor. 2 The rich man had a very large number of sheep and cattle, 3 but the poor man had nothing except one little ewe lamb he had bought. He raised it, and it grew up with him and his children. It shared his food, drank from his cup and even slept in his arms. It was like a daughter to him.
4 "Now a traveler came to the rich man, but the rich man refrained from taking one of his own sheep or cattle to prepare a meal for the traveler who had come to him. Instead, he took the ewe lamb that belonged to the poor man and prepared it for the one who had come to him."
5 David burned with anger against the man and said to Nathan, "As surely as the LORD lives, the man who did this deserves to die! 6 He must pay for that lamb four times over, because he did such a thing and had no pity."
7 Then Nathan said to David, "You are the man! This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. 8 I gave your master's house to you, and your master's wives into your arms. I gave you the house of Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more. 9 Why did you despise the word of the LORD by doing what is evil in his eyes? You struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword and took his wife to be your own. You killed him with the sword of the Ammonites. 10 Now, therefore, the sword will never depart from your house, because you despised me and took the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your own.'
11 "This is what the LORD says: 'Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity upon you. Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight. 12 You did it in secret, but I will do this thing in broad daylight before all Israel.' "
13 Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD."
Nathan replied, "The LORD has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. 14 But because by doing this you have made the enemies of the LORD show utter contempt, the son born to you will die."
15 After Nathan had gone home, the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife had borne to David, and he became ill. 16 David pleaded with God for the child. He fasted and went into his house and spent the nights lying on the ground. 17 The elders of his household stood beside him to get him up from the ground, but he refused, and he would not eat any food with them.
18 On the seventh day the child died. David's servants were afraid to tell him that the child was dead, for they thought, "While the child was still living, we spoke to David but he would not listen to us. How can we tell him the child is dead? He may do something desperate."
19 David noticed that his servants were whispering among themselves and he realized the child was dead. "Is the child dead?" he asked.
"Yes," they replied, "he is dead."
20 Then David got up from the ground. After he had washed, put on lotions and changed his clothes, he went into the house of the LORD and worshiped. Then he went to his own house, and at his request they served him food, and he ate.
21 His servants asked him, "Why are you acting this way? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept, but now that the child is dead, you get up and eat!"
22 He answered, "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, 'Who knows? The LORD may be gracious to me and let the child live.' 23 But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me."

What are your thoughts when confronted with that argument?

Whose sins did David"™s baby die for?

Thanks
mr-pirk

[Leafrivermac]

Hey Pirk, was fixing to go to bed when I saw this thread. Looks like a pretty involved study. A couple of things come to mind but to immediatley answer your question "whose sins did David's baby die for". I would say David's of course. . . But rather think it as 'David was just not blessed with this child, more so than to feel that the baby was being punished as the Baby would go on to be with God in my opinion'. Of course this is just an immediate knee jerk rationalization as I am some time past the time I was ready to go to bed . I may see this different tomorrow.

[Turkey Fife]

Mr. Pirk,

Do you happen know any Lynchards in Melvern AR?

[Chuck7]

What are your thoughts when confronted with that argument?

Whose sins did David"™s baby die for?

Thanks
mr-pirk
Hey Mark,
Good to hear from ya..sorry I didn't see this till now. My friend , I've always read it the way it was written..David sinned and God took David's son. We see that frame of mine as well in John 9 when the disciples ask"Whose sin was it that caused the blind man to be born blind? " In this case Jesus said this happened for the glory of God..Also, concernign David...he had even more sorer punishment coming..

I make no excuses for the way God deals and dealt with folks..He is all knowing and is just and righteous..David royallly blew it and was royally chastized.
Chuck7

[Rebel Hog]

ORIGINAL: mr-pirk

One of the mysteries of the Bible I have been trying to reconcile is this:

"Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sins"�.

Whose sins did David"™s baby die for?

Thanks
mr-pirk

David's........for lack of Devotion!

Leviticus 26:39
Those of you who are left will waste away in the lands of their enemies because of their sins; also because of their fathers' sins they will waste away.
(Whole Chapter: Leviticus 26In context: Leviticus 26:38-40)

[/align]Leviticus 26:40
" 'But if they will confess their sins and the sins of their fathers-their treachery against me and their hostility toward me,
(Whole Chapter: Leviticus 26In context: Leviticus 26:39-41)

[/align]1 Kings 14:22
Judah did evil in the eyes of the Lord . By the sins they committed they stirred up his jealous anger more than their fathers had done.
(Whole Chapter: 1 Kings 14In context: 1 Kings 14:21-23)

[/align]2 Kings 14:6
Yet he did not put the sons of the assassins to death, in accordance with what is written in the Book of the Law of Moses where the Lord commanded: "Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sins." [ 14:6 Deut. 24:16 ]
(Whole Chapter: 2 Kings 14In context: 2 Kings 14:5-7)

[/align]2 Kings 15:9
He did evil in the eyes of the Lord , as his fathers had done. He did not turn away from the sins of Jeroboam son of Nebat, which he had caused Israel to commit.
(Whole Chapter: 2 Kings 15In context: 2 Kings 15:8-10)

[/align]2 Chronicles 25:4
Yet he did not put their sons to death, but acted in accordance with what is written in the Law, in the Book of Moses, where the Lord commanded: "Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sins." [ 25:4 Deut. 24:16 ]
(Whole Chapter: 2 Chronicles 25In context: 2 Chronicles 25:3-5)

[/align]Ezra 9:7
From the days of our forefathers until now, our guilt has been great. Because of our sins, we and our kings and our priests have been subjected to the sword and captivity, to pillage and humiliation at the hand of foreign kings, as it is today.
(Whole Chapter: Ezra 9In context: Ezra 9:6-8)

[/align]Nehemiah 9:2
Those of Israelite descent had separated themselves from all foreigners. They stood in their places and confessed their sins and the wickedness of their fathers.
(Whole Chapter: Nehemiah 9In context: Nehemiah 9:1-3)

[/align]Psalm 79:8
Do not hold against us the sins of the fathers; may your mercy come quickly to meet us, for we are in desperate need.
(Whole Chapter: Psalm 79In context: Psalm 79:7-9)

[/align]Isaiah 14:21
Prepare a place to slaughter his sons for the sins of their forefathers; they are not to rise to inherit the land and cover the earth with their cities.
(Whole Chapter: Isaiah 14In context: Isaiah 14:20-22)

[/align]Isaiah 65:7
both your sins and the sins of your fathers," says the Lord . "Because they burned sacrifices on the mountains and defied me on the hills, I will measure into their laps the full payment for their former deeds."
(Whole Chapter: Isaiah 65In context: Isaiah 65:6-8)

[/align]Jeremiah 11:10
They have returned to the sins of their forefathers, who refused to listen to my words. They have followed other gods to serve them. Both the house of Israel and the house of Judah have broken the covenant I made with their forefathers.
(Whole Chapter: Jeremiah 11In context: Jeremiah 11:9-11)

[/align]Jeremiah 32:18
You show love to thousands but bring the punishment for the fathers' sins into the laps of their children after them. O great and powerful God, whose name is the Lord Almighty,
(Whole Chapter: Jeremiah 32In context: Jeremiah 32:17-19)

[/align]Daniel 9:16
O Lord, in keeping with all your righteous acts, turn away your anger and your wrath from Jerusalem, your city, your holy hill. Our sins and the iniquities of our fathers have made Jerusalem and your people an object of scorn to all those around us.
(Whole Chapter: Daniel 9In context: Daniel 9:15-17)[/align]

[mr-pirk]

Hey everyone. Thanks for the replies.

Perhaps I am not thinking about this one right, but my mind keeps heading off in a different direction on this one.
Mac what I am seeing is the office David held, more so than God refusing to allow David a blessing arising from sin. We see the same thing when David conducted the census for the wrong motive. Israel was punished when its leadership sinned. We see it time and time again when the leadership led the country into idol worship. The leadership sinned and the citizens suffered punishment ranging from famine to being plundered to exile.
Chuck, to me comparing John 9 to what occurred with David"™s son is a bit of apples to oranges. I do find it interesting and surprising though that, even in the apostle"™s time, the idea of a man being born handicapped was due to his parent"™s sins was still acceptable and I am assuming widely believed.
Rebel Hog I agree that it was David"™s sins that the child died for, unless you buy into the "œAdamamic sin"� theory that some folks want to push. (I am not referring to you or anyone on this forum.) However if you frame what happened in light of David-private citizen it flies in the face of other scripture "œthe children are not to be put to death for the sins of the father"�. Most of the verses you posted, to me, seem to point to communal sins and communal punishment. The Israeli leaders bore a greater responsibility for the communal sin because they were the ones in a position to and responsible for stopping the communal sin.

The bottom line for me, so far, is that just the same as Israeli citizens suffered for the sins of its leadership, such as when David conducted the census or communal sin as some of the verses Rebel Hog posted, we as citizensare punished personally forour own personalsins as well as communal punishment for communal sin.

This brings me to Mac"™s point, if the average Israeli citizen was to suffer for the sin of its leaders. Shouldn"™t David"™s own household suffer the same fate?

I am still sorting it out though. There is still more to ponder such as the man that stole the wedge of gold and such.

Turkey Fife the name Lynchards doesn"™t ring any bells, sorry.

Thanks
mr-pirk

[Chuck7]

Chuck, to me comparing John 9 to what occurred with David"™s son is a bit of apples to oranges. I do find it interesting and surprising though that, even in the apostle"™s time, the idea of a man being born handicapped was due to his parent"™s sins was still acceptable and I am assuming widely believed.

To my understanding....the Jewish thought was that God was ultimately responsible for all things..This is why I compared it to John 9.

[Chuck7]

Last night Mark as I layed down I recalled some other situations...

Job was having a very hard time and his religious friends PRESUMED there was sin in his life..when there really wasn't at all...God speaks and in essence says " You folks don't know me as good as you thought."

In John 9 we have the same thought...whose sin caused this.

And in David's life..I repent of my statement..who am I to say he was royally chastized...Maybe it was birth complication..Who am I to read the Lord's mind ..I really must confess ..I don't know the rhyme asn reason for such things ..God has said.."Is it not I who has made the deaf and blind." and in Isaiah.."When I take a child out at a young age it's because I spared them trouble." I wish I knew where that latter verse was..I love that one.
Merry Christmas Mark,
C7

[Snooky]

and in Isaiah.."When I take a child out at a young age it's because I spared them trouble."

When you locate it, please post it for us. Thanks

[Chuck7]

I sure will..Snooky..I plan to do some serious deer stand sitting for 14 days.My wife who is well versed in the Old Testament told me it's in Isaiah somewhere..I'll read Isaiah in my stand and find it for both of us..it will be my signature..There is one catch..I will be reading a modern version..
I do remember reading it once and it blessed my heart.
Merry Christmas,
C7

Snook ...my wife was just here...she said she has the verse highlighted at home and AGAIN..I was a little wrongShe said the verse {Paraphrased } actually says ."And why do you judge me when someone dies..is it not that they are delivered from this trouble." I should be able to get the exact verse later..