Ephesians 1:12-14

[LBR]

This verse was brought up recently, but seems it was a casualty of the posts that were removed. I just remembered it, and wanted to address it.

12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

I was pointed to this as proof of salvation before baptism. Obviously baptism is not mentioned here--so is that proof that it is not required?

I can see how that could be how some would understand it, especially if you were already leaning in that direction. However, if this verse is proof that baptism isn't required--because it isn't mentioned--on that same merit it would also prove that neither confessing Christ orrepentance isrequired--neither of those arementioned either.

Obviously that would be contradictory to other scriptures, and is not at all what I believe. This is just another example of how, by taking a verse here and there, you can be led in the wrong direction.

Chad

[dabowhunter]

"Obviously baptism is not mentioned here--so is that proof that it is not required?"

So are youoffering proof of baptismal regeneration by pointing out that it is not mentioned insuch importantverses like the ones you quoted?????


Eph. 4:30, "And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, by whom ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."

BTW notice how we who are sealed are saved till when??? The day of redemption! Sounds like eternal security to me!


Baptism is not mentioned in the following verses either. Is that further proof that it is required???????





But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name." John 1:12.

"That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned, but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:15-18.

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." John 3:36.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life; and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." John 5:24.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life." John 6:47.

". . . . Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." Acts 16:30-31.

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." Romans 4:5.

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Romans 10:9.

"Wherefore also it is contained in the scriptures, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief cornerstone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded." I Peter 2:6.

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" John 11:25-26.

[LBR]

dabowhunter, I think you are smart enough to realize my point, but I'll make it anyway. Just because every verse mentioning salvation doesn't include baptism doesn't mean the ones that do mention baptism should be skipped, ignored, or changed.

John 1:12--no mention of repentance or confession here. Does that mean those aren't required?

John 3:15-18--SHOULD not perish--doesn't say "shall not", "can not", "will not", etc. Also no mention of hearing, repenting, or confessing here either. Is this proof these are not required?

John 3:36--same thing

John 5:24--no mention of repenting or confessing here

John 6:47--same

Acts 16:30-31--We already have baptism given as a requirement in Acts 2:38. No mention of hearing, confessing, or repenting in verses 30 and 31.

Romans 4:5--no mention of hearing, confessing, or repenting here either

Romans 10:9--no mention of hearing or repenting here--does confessing count in this verse? It's not mentioned in the others.

I Peter 2:6--not being confounded is the same as being saved? Read on to I Peter 3:21. Using the same"logic" you are attempting to use, I could say that only baptism in required because of what Peter said--but of course I wouldn't say that because I know it's false.

John 11:25-26--no mention of hearing, confessing, or repenting here either.

Now, if I try to understand salvation using just the verses you produced, then I jump over to James chapter two (verse 19) and read "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. ", what am I supposed to think? Either the devils are saved, or the Bible contradicts itself, or maybe I'm just not getting the full picture here.

I have no problem saying I believe the verses you posted are 100% true--but they do not contain 100% OF the Truth, nor do they nullify all the verses that tell us that (scriptural) baptism is for remission of sins, to be saved, to be buried with Christ, to get into Christ, etc.

Like I said before, there is not even one simple verse of scripture that says anyone was first saved, then baptized. One can pick and choose certain verses, add a little assumption to the mix, and claim there are--but take the scriptures as they are given, it's simply not there. There's not one verse that says baptism is an option, something that one "should" do (it's always a command), that it's "an outward expression of an inward change", etc. etc. etc. All of that requires man to add his own words, his own beliefs, his own interpretations--it's not in the Bible, and I choose to believe the Bible over what any man says.

Chad

[CalHunter]

I've always thought that when Christ was being crucified on the cross and told the criminal he would be with Christ in Heaven that afternoon meant that God is in charge of who goes to Heaven and maybe we don't always know or understand the complete process of how everybody gets to Heaven. Obviously there are examples in the bible of people being baptized or not baptized and still going to heaven.

[dabowhunter]

REALITY: That which is real; in fact, the actual substance, as opposed to its symbol or emblem.
FORMALITY: External appearance; ceremony; a representation of that which is real; an image or likeness; a figure.
FIGURATIVE: Representing or illustrating by a figure, type, emblem, or symbol.
METAPHORICAL: Figurative language which suggests a likeness or analogy.


If you are considering the actual or literal redemption of the soul, then that is by Jesus Christ.

If you are considering the figurative salvation of the soul, then that is by baptism (I Peter 3:21).

Literal salvation by Christ is not figurative, but actual.
Figurative salvation by baptism is not literal, but symbolic.
The erroris in seeking salvation by the shadow rather than by the substance which casts the shadow.

Some peoplewho are conscientious in thinking that some ceremony or ordinance is the literal means of salvation fail to distinguish between a reality and a formality.

The work of Jesus Christ is the reality of salvation. He lived, died, and arose again to fulfill the Law of God and bring in a perfect righteousness by which His people are justified.

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth (Romans 10:4).

And again Paul expresses his appreciation for the imputed righteousness of Christ in Phil. 3:9:

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith.

Only that which literally pays sin"™s debt, satisfies the broken law, frees from condemnation, establishes righteousness, and effectually redeems can be described as the REALITY of our salvation.

Jesus Christ literally and judicially [legally] met every demand of God"™s Law against its violators, thus removing condemnation, "œthe curse of the Law."� (Galatians 3:10, 13). He asserted in Matthew 26:28 that His blood was shed [that is, His life was sacrificed] "œfor the remission of sins."�
This is the reality of salvation. This is the literal aspect of salvation. Christ really and literally and actually saves by His own work, giving the benefits to His people (II Cor. 5:21).

Let us think for a moment, then, about the formality [the figurative] in relation to salvation. We know that if Christ"™s death is the reality, nothing else could be. Hence, we conclude that baptism is the formality, not the reality.

Look at it this way: baptism would have no meaning without Christ"™s death; but Christ"™s death would still have meaning, even if there were no baptism. In other words, Christ"™s death is the substance and baptism is the shadow. Without the substance there would be no shadow. The death, burial and resurrection of Christ is figured or cast [as a shadow] in the ordinance of water baptism. Baptism is the token or emblem of our literal redemption by Jesus Christ. Baptism could not possibly be the reality with regard to redemption because it cannot pay the penalty of sin (Romans 6:23). But Christ did (I Cor. 15:3). Baptism could not remove condemnation (Gal. 3:10). Christ did (Gal. 3:13). Baptism could not redeem; but Christ did (I Peter 1:18-20).

Whatever, then, baptism does it only does in a formal sense. That is, it manifests in ceremony that which really does procure salvation. It declares by a means of physical likeness that which redeems. It is the visible "œlikeness"� (Romans 6:5) of the actual work of Christ, just as a photograph is the pictorial likeness of some individual, not the actual person.

[The Rev]

And you missed the most obvious thing in this verse... The HOLY SPIRIT which was the down payment, until we go home (The redemption of the purchased possession) .. There are some here that believe the gifts of the HOLY SPIRIT have been done away with, no longer existent, God no longer speaks to us...Things of the past....

[Chuck7]

.. There are some here that believe the gifts of the HOLY SPIRIT have been done away with, no longer existent, God no longer speaks to us...Things of the past....
Rev.


And that is so sad...BUT it may be because they have never seen a truly spirit filled brother or sister..Many claim to be filled but thier actions deny not only the working of His Spirit but Christianity all together..2007 needs and is calling for true believers...lovers of God..I beleive God is presently calling us who have tasted of that blessing to return to our first love...which is a love for God's Word each mornign and a desire to pray...a desire to advoid the works of darkness and love those things that are pure..

Rev...if I had not seen these precious folks..I would have never beleived a life was even possible. Once you run into true spirit filled beleivers it makes you real thirsty .Today there are many fake ones on TV who claim to be Spirit filled...this has really been a distraction from the true living water..1 Timothy calls it "Doctrines of devils."

[LBR]

I've always thought that when Christ was being crucified on the cross and told the criminal he would be with Christ in Heaven that afternoon meant that God is in charge of who goes to Heaven and maybe we don't always know or understand the complete process of how everybody gets to Heaven. Obviously there are examples in the bible of people being baptized or not baptized and still going to heaven.

We have a few examples of Christ forgiving sins in person when He was in the flesh. Two things to keep in mind: Christ told us He had that power, and He did this under the Law. Christ established Christianity, but He did that by being the only one to ever keep the law perfectly, and fullfilled the law when he came to earth, died, and arose on the third day. There are no examples of anyone being saved before or without baptism after Christ finished His work.

Obeying the command to be baptized is not a work of the law--it's a command to be obeyed under Christ.

I agree 100% that without Christ's death, baptism would be futile. That doesn't change the fact that it is commanded of us.

God didn't need Naaman's help to cleanse leprosy--but when was Naaman's leprosy cleansed? Was it when he believed, when he decided to obey, or after he had finished obeying?

God didn't need the Israelite's help to bring down the walls of Jericho--but when did they come down? When they believed, when they decided to obey, or only after they had finished obeying?

Why is it that most will not deny that some acts are required of us, because God said to do it; while baptism is not required, because it's an act we have to perform? We have to hear, believe, repent, and confess also. These all require our willing, active, concious participation--no more and no less than baptism.

Christ finished His work--no doubt about it. Does that mean we have no part to play in accepting His gift? Like I keep saying--we either have to do something, or we have to do absolutely nothing. Either we have a role to play, or we don't. It can't be both.Either everyone is saved, regardless of what they do (Christ died for all), or God randomly selects who He wants to be saved and nothing we do can change our final destination, or we have a choice in whether or not to accept Christ through obedience to God's commands.

Finally, it simply boils down to believing and obeying, or not. There are numerous verses that plainly and simply tell us baptism is a requirement for New Testament Christians, and tell us what it is for. One has to either ignore them or change them to get around them. It's not something I came up with--no amount of logic, ridicule, or denial will change that.

I Corinthians 12:13 "For by one spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."

Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall recieve the gift of the Holy Ghost."

Acts 10:48 "And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days."

Acts 22:16 "And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

Romans 6:3-5 "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For is we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:"

Galatians 3:27 "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."

I Peter 3:21 "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"

Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."


James chapter 2 is devoted to clarifying that belief alone will not save anyone.

How are our sins remitted? How to we get into Christ? How do we put on Christ? According to the Bible, it's through baptism. It's obvious that it's talking about literal water baptism--we can't control the Holy Spirit. God wouldn't require something of us that we have no control over, and baptism is always given as a command.

I have no idea why such a simple act, and a command from God, is so hard to accept or comprehend. If God told us to go kill a lion with our bare hands, or go climb a mountain without any gear, we'd be all for it--but folks will go around the world to try to explain away baptism.

I don't claim to know it all, or understand it all, but I do know this: I will but my faith in what the Bible tells me--not in what man says, not in what I want to do, not in what I think, not in what I feel. God is no respecter of persons--He isn't going to send the Holy Spirit to tell one person one thing, another person something else, and have the Bible say something different.

Chad

[Snooky]

Could it be that we are approaching this issue from the wrong direction? I only speak for myself here, but as I have said often in the past, IMO the bottom line in determining if one is saved, or lost is found in the answer to this question. Is the one (person)in question, walking in the light that God has given him to walk in? If so I have no problem saying he is "saved". He has done everything that has been revealed unto him to do. Sin is defined by scripture as the knowledge to do good, and then not doing what is known, or revealed unto the individual.
Here is where I see the problem, at what point does God require one to walk in the revealed light? When does sin, become sin? "To him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it IS sin" IMO This is why the bible records, baptism immediatly after the message went forth rather that waiting until a later date. Would one hear a "thou shalt not commit adultery" message and then say, "I will confess Christ next Easter", because I have a date with my neighbors wife tonight? Christ's blood has been spilled so I don't need to be in a hurry? I believe Jesus is Gods Son, so I will be saved, even while I live in adultry? Ect. One shouldn't commit adultry, the bible teaches us that simple truth. The same bible that says, "Then commanded he them to be baptized".
A commandment, is a commandment, is a commandment! When does God expect a commandment to be obeyed? Is it not when one becomes aware of what God has commanded? Isn't that when sin, becomes sin? At the knowledge of Gods will?
Is this flawed reasoning? If so, when do you think sin becomes exceedingly sinful? We have discussed "when is the blood applied", At what point is one saved? ect. May be we should look at the question, at what point does sin bar one from Gods presense. Or, What does one have to do to be lost. Is one saved in rebelling, or saved in obeying? Is one saved in sin, or saved from sin? Does one scripture have priority above another as to which is to be obeyed, and which is to be neglected?

[dabowhunter]

In Matthew 26, Christ instituted the Lord"™s Supper.Verses 26-28 read:

"And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; for this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for the remission of sins."
There are those who fail to distinguish between the reality and the formality when they read this record; a world-wide religious system is in existence today, teaching that when Christ referred to the bread and wine as His body and blood He meant His literal flesh and blood. This system says that in "œthe mass"� the bread and wine are supernaturally changed into the actual, literal flesh and blood of Christ.
They say that this must be the case, if any are to be saved, for Christ states in John 6:53:
"Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you."
But a more scriptural view of this matter - andI might add, more reasonable - is that Christ meant that the bread and wine were emblems or symbols of His flesh and blood and the "œeating"� and "œdrinking"� is figurative or metaphorical language, declaring the necessity of trusting the Son of God for salvation.
Whereas some take this preposterous interpretation with regard to the Lord"™s Supper, there are others who parallel this view when it comes to baptism. While some say that you can"™t have life without eating the literal flesh and blood of Christ in "œthe mass,"� there are others who say you can"™t have life unless you "œcontact the blood in baptism."� While some hold that in some manner the bread and wine becomes the body and the blood of Christ, there are others who say that in some manner you "œmeet the blood in the water."�
But certainly, the flesh of Christ - which was just as finite and human [except for sin] as any other person"™s body - could not possibly have been in the mouths of His eleven disciples and at the same time be alive in their very presence! This also applies to His blood, flowing in His veins.
But all difficulty is solved when we realize the distinction between a reality and the emblem that represents it. Each time we observe the Lord"™s Supper we proclaim emblematically the truth that Christ"™s flesh and blood were given in death for our sins (I Cor. 10:16).
Likewise, in baptism the blood of Christ is no more in the water than it is in the wine of the Lord"™s Supper. We should be careful that we do not in some way make the emblem the literal substance. It is an emblem; that is all. In baptism we, by this ceremony ordained of Almighty God, proclaim our actual death to sin by the body of Christ. We declare our salvation by the work of Christ.
"œThis is my body"� is literal terminology, but it is plain that it is also metaphorical language.
"œArise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins"� is just as literal; but since baptism is not the procurative cause of salvation, we know that this is a formal, figurative emblematical washing away of sins.
The distinction between a reality and formality is clearly seen in the book of Hebrews. The writer here deals with the animal sacrifices of the Jewish worship and states that, so far as a literal remission is concerned, "œIt is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats should take away sin"� (Heb. 10:4).
Why? Because there is the matter of unsatisfied justice. Animal sacrifices could not satisfy the broken law. So they could "œnever take away sins"� (Heb. 10:11) and could never "œmake the comers thereunto perfect"� (Heb. 10:1).
The sacrifices could not "œmake perfect;"� that is, they could not take care of the sin problem. But Christ could and did, thus fulfilling what the animal sacrifices proclaimed in type and shadow (Heb. 10:1).
"By one offering he hath perfected forever them that are sanctified "(Heb.
10:14).
He made His people "œperfect through (His) sufferings"� (Heb. 2:10).
Because the animal sacrifices were merely formalities, not the actual
remitting of sins, they did not really take away sin. Therefore, they were offered until that which they typified did come and take away sin, being Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God who taketh away the sin of the world (I John 1:29).
Christ"™s death was the reality; the sacrifices only the formality. The sacrifices manifested or revealed how sin would be remitted - through the death of a substitute - but they did not literally remit sin themselves. This was the work of Christ, who alone could pay the debt of sin to divine justice.
So it is with the formality of baptism; it manifests how sin is literally remitted, that being through the death of Christ. The act of baptism itself could never, however, take away sin or make the comer thereunto perfect - no more than could the animal sacrifices. Those whowould claimbaptism to be the reality with respect to sin"™s remission, are in the same state as that Jew who would erroneously make the sacrifice of some animal the reality.
The Jews had gradually apostatized to the point where they were not only trusting in the sacrifices as the reality of remission, but they also were doing all manner of other human works, trying to establish a righteousness for themselves before God. Christ denounced their "œtraditions"� and revealed that their righteousness was of no value (Matt. 5:20).
Paul, who had been of this apostate religion, was saved and he, too, exposed the heresies of the Pharisees (Romans 10:3, 4). When men accept the formalities such as ordinances and ceremonies as being the realities of those things which they actually only typify, then they become like unto the Pharisees.