I was just doing some more reading in James. I reckon I can relate to James, because he's blunt, and tends to use some sarcasm to get his point across.
Anyway, I just notices something that I'd never noticed before. From James chapter 2.
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
James notes what Abraham did--offered Isaac. Then he follows with saying the scripture was fulfilled by Abraham's action. The scripture was "Abraham believed God".
What fulfilled this scripture? Abraham's obedience! Abraham didn't just believe in his mind, he did what he was told, and that is what fulfilled the scripture.
I thought this was quite interesting.
Chad
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"We can have no '50-50' allegiance in this country. Either a man is an American and nothing else, or he is not an American at all."-- Theodore Roosevelt
A wise man's heart is at his right hand; but a fool's heart at his left. Ecclesiasties 10:2
The last four letters in American..........I Can
The last four letters in Republican........I Can
The last four letters in Democrats.........Rats
Thats a good study Chad, I see no one is jumping up and down to rebuke it.
I can just imagine some folk today being there when these scenes took place:
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 2007- Excuse me Peter but your being a bit legalistic are'nt you. . .Baptism is'nt a necessary thing. I believe we'll just repent a little bit so we don't get caught up in the works thing.
(John 3:5) Jesus said "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 2007- Well now I heard you talking the other day Lord, and that just ain't the way you said it.
__________________ And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Chad
Chad....good for you!
You are beginning to see the truth for yourself.
You can see from both those passages that faith came first!...then the works.
I knew you would begin to see it.
God's Word never comes back void.
You say you'd never noticed it before..but now you see.
I am truly glad.
Lol--I can appreciate the sarcasm Joe. Just in case one of our readers doesn't get it, I never said or implied such.
The scripture is plain and simple. Of course belief comes first--you aren't going to obey something you don't believe. However, just we are shown time and time again--Naaman, Jacob, Abraham, etc.--belief, obedience, then the reward/gift. Naaman wasn't cleansed when he believed, but only after he obeyed. The walls of Jericho didn't fall when the Israelites believed, only after they obeyed. Abraham wasn't told not to sacrifice Isaac when he believed, only after he was in the process of doing it.
Of course belief is a requirement, but James makes it plain and clear---if you believe, you are doing well--the devils believe also, and tremble. Faith without works is dead. Dead faith is no good. That's simple scripture, not opinion.
Chad
__________________
"We can have no '50-50' allegiance in this country. Either a man is an American and nothing else, or he is not an American at all."-- Theodore Roosevelt
A wise man's heart is at his right hand; but a fool's heart at his left. Ecclesiasties 10:2
The last four letters in American..........I Can
The last four letters in Republican........I Can
The last four letters in Democrats.........Rats
Lol--I can appreciate the sarcasm Joe. Just in case one of our readers doesn't get it, I never said or implied such.
The scripture is plain and simple. Of course belief comes first--you aren't going to obey something you don't believe. However, just we are shown time and time again--Naaman, Jacob, Abraham, etc.--belief, obedience, then the reward/gift. Naaman wasn't cleansed when he believed, but only after he obeyed. The walls of Jericho didn't fall when the Israelites believed, only after they obeyed. Abraham wasn't told not to sacrifice Isaac when he believed, only after he was in the process of doing it.
Of course belief is a requirement, but James makes it plain and clear---if you believe, you are doing well--the devils believe also, and tremble. Faith without works is dead. Dead faith is no good. That's simple scripture, not opinion.
Chad
I'm not a Bible expert, but I've been following some of these discussions. I have to say that thisseems like a very consistent and coherent summary.
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Proud parents of our own "Daddy's Little Girls"
I heard Jesus He drank wine and I bet we'd get along just fine.
James is simply saying that if you "˜say' you are a Christian, then there had better be some appropriate works manifested or your faith is false. This sentiment is echoed in 1 John 2:4 which says, "If you say you have come to know Him, yet you do not keep His commandments, then the truth is not in you and you are a liar."
Apparently, there were people who were saying they were Christians, but were not manifesting any of the fruit of Christianity. Can this faith justify? Can the dead "˜faith' that someone has which produces no change in a person and no good works before men and God be a faith that justifies? Absolutely not. It is not merely enough to say you believe in Jesus. You must actually believe and trust in Him. If you actually do, then you will demonstrate that faith by a changed and godly life. If not, then your profession is of no more value than the same profession of demons: "We believe Jesus lived."
Notice that James actually quotes the same verse that Paul uses to support the teaching of justification by faith in Rom. 4:3. James 2:23 says, "and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "˜and Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.'" If James was trying to teach a contradictory doctrine of faith and works than the other New Testament writers, then he would not have used Abraham as an example.
Therefore, we are justified by faith. That is, we are made righteous in the eyes of God by faith as is amply demonstrated by Romans. However, that faith, if it is true, will result in deeds appropriate to salvation. After all, didn't God say in Eph. 2:8-10, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."
23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
To me, this kind of points out how the FAITH is the most important part. God imputed Abraham's FAITH as righteousness, not the works he had done.
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Today' s small bucks are tomorrow' s trophies.
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Lol--I can appreciate the sarcasm Joe. Just in case one of our readers doesn't get it, I never said or implied such.
The scripture is plain and simple. Of course belief comes first--you aren't going to obey something you don't believe. However, just we are shown time and time again--Naaman, Jacob, Abraham, etc.--belief, obedience, then the reward/gift. Naaman wasn't cleansed when he believed, but only after he obeyed. The walls of Jericho didn't fall when the Israelites believed, only after they obeyed. Abraham wasn't told not to sacrifice Isaac when he believed, only after he was in the process of doing it.
Of course belief is a requirement, but James makes it plain and clear---if you believe, you are doing well--the devils believe also, and tremble. Faith without works is dead. Dead faith is no good. That's simple scripture, not opinion.
Chad
Chad, You are getting it! No sarcasm intended.
You've been saying all through these threrads that baptism is a part of salvation.
Now you are saying belief must come before obedience.
That's finally correct Chad...you believe FIRST...and THEN you obey the command to be baptized. Indeed, you have been confused and convoluted...no doubt about it. Why can't you see the inconsistency of your own arguments?
I think I'll accept what James actually said vs. what you think he said. I don't have to change it to make it fit what I believe. James wasn't trying to contradict anything--he simply made the point that faith and action go hand in hand--living faith at least. It's not contradictory to Ephesians at all, if you take in it context. Nobody has attempted to explain to me how baptism could be described as of ourselves, or something to boast about.
Dave, when was it imputed to Abraham? When was the scripture fulfilled? When he believed in his heart, or only after he had begun to do what God told him to do? Just like Naaman, just like the Israelites and Jericho, etc.
Joe, what I believe hasn't changed one bit. I've always said belief comes before baptism. Belief does not equal salvation. It's not my words that say baptism is an essential part of salvation--it's straight from the Bible.
Do you think salvation comes before repentance? Do you think salvation comes before confessing Christ? Belief comes before either of these as well--how are you going to repent if you don't first believe? Why would you confess something you don't yet believe?
The best I've seen from you so far is opinions, your "confused and convoluted" assessment, and a scripture or two taken out of context. You haven't even managed to answer a simple question with a straight yes or no.
I think that even those who don't agree with me here will say I'm anything but inconsistent.
Chad
__________________
"We can have no '50-50' allegiance in this country. Either a man is an American and nothing else, or he is not an American at all."-- Theodore Roosevelt
A wise man's heart is at his right hand; but a fool's heart at his left. Ecclesiasties 10:2
The last four letters in American..........I Can
The last four letters in Republican........I Can
The last four letters in Democrats.........Rats
22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
What is meant by the term used here; "faith was MADE perfect". How was it made perfect, By God? or by Abrahams works?
Verse 25 talks about Rahab the harlot. Was she a harlot before her justification, or after her justification? Where does it say anywhere about her justification by faith? I'm, not saying she was saved without faith, just that faith isn't mentioned anywhere that I see. I do see that her justification by her works IS mentioned. Saved by works alone? I didn't say that either. I'm just wondering how some of you fellows that have been in such a tizzie, answer such a simple scripture.
Belief and Action
