I've asked these questions several times on a different thread, but they were obviously overlooked. That must be the case, because with all the preachers, teachers, and scholars we have on this board I'm sure that you would be eager to answer any questions, and certainly wouldn't ignore one because it was too hard. Surely someone can answer a few questions from a simple country bumpkin like myself.
We've gone round and round, up and down, and sideways in our discussions about "works"--more specifically baptism, and whether or not it is a "work" as defined in Ephesians 2:8,9. "8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:9Not of works, lest any man should boast. "
Obviously I don't believe it is a "work", because baptism isn't something we invented, but rather is commanded(it's not of ourselves), and it's no great feat that takes any special skills (nothing to boast of). However, the argument seems to be that, since it's a physical action, then it's a work. That brings me to the questions that were "overlooked".
When Naaman dipped in the river Jordan seven times to be cleansed of his leprosy, did he earn that cleansing, or was it a gift? Why was he not cleansed when he believed what the prophet Elisha told him to do, or when he decided he would do it, rather than after he had completed doing exactly what he was told? II Kings 5:1-14.
On a similar note, did the children of Israel earn or work for the city of Jericho by marching and shouting and blowing trumpets, or was it a gift from God? Again, why weren't they allowed to overtake the city when they decided to obey? Then they could have marched and shouted and blown trumpetsat their convenience later on. Why didn't the walls fall when Joshua made up his mind that he was going to do exactly what God told him to? Why didn't the walls fall after 2 days of marching, or 3? The Bible says the walls fell and the city was delivered unto them only after they had done exactly what God commanded them to do. Did that make it any less a gift? Joshua 6:1-10
I think I know why these questions were "overlooked", and invite anyone who cares to correct me. I think it's obvious that Naaman's cleansing and the city of Jericho were gifts from God to his obedient servants. However, if you agree with me on that note, and say that these were gifts, you know you are going to theologically shoot yourself in the foot. The reason is obvious--one of the primary arguments against baptism being an essential command to recieve the gift of salvation is "A gift it free! Saying that baptism is essential is saying you have to earn salvation! You are saying Christ's blood wasn't enough!" Etc, etc.
Well, was God not powerful enough to cleanse Naaman without Naaman "helping" by being obedient? Was God not powerful enough to bring down the walls of Jericho without the Israelites "helping" by being obedient? Even though these servants of God were required to be obedient and obey the specific instructions given to them, were the things they were given any less gifts?
I'll even post my non-scripturalexample again. Your mother (grandmother, sister-in-law, aunt--you get the point) lovingly prepares a huge meal for you. She does all the work herself, from gathering the food, to washing it, to preparing it, to setting the table with fine china. She gets it all completed and ready, then offers you the invitation to come and eat. In order to partake, you have to get out of your recliner, make your way to the table, fix your plate, cut it up (or, if you are from the South, pick it up and bite it off), chew, and swallow. Wow--you had to do all that work yourself to get that food into your body--therefore that must mean that tremendous feast that was laid out before you wasn't a gift at all, because you had to work to get nourishment from it!
I think my point is obvious, but I'll say it anyway. I'm not trying to be belligerent, or a smart aleck, or anything like that. I'm trying to get some folks here to THINK, to use the instructions God gave us rather than base their salvation on tradition, what grandma and grandpa taught them, what you have believed for the past 75 years, what the preacher that touched your life and made you aware of your condition was had told you.........anything other than what the Bible plainly tells us.
Just because the act of being submerged in water requires your concious and physical participation does not classify it as a work as described in Ephesians 2:8,9. Again, it is a command from God (not of ourselves), and it is no great feat to accomplish (lest any man should boast).
I sincerely welcome any scriptural replies, and would very much appreciate your participation.
Chad
__________________
"We can have no '50-50' allegiance in this country. Either a man is an American and nothing else, or he is not an American at all."-- Theodore Roosevelt
A wise man's heart is at his right hand; but a fool's heart at his left. Ecclesiasties 10:2
The last four letters in American..........I Can
The last four letters in Republican........I Can
The last four letters in Democrats.........Rats
My computer is actin gup Chad...I tried copying and pasting your post but my computer wouldn't let me..yes all of those things are acts of work and obedience.
C7
__________________
"We can have no '50-50' allegiance in this country. Either a man is an American and nothing else, or he is not an American at all."-- Theodore Roosevelt
A wise man's heart is at his right hand; but a fool's heart at his left. Ecclesiasties 10:2
The last four letters in American..........I Can
The last four letters in Republican........I Can
The last four letters in Democrats.........Rats
I've asked these questions several times on a different thread, but they were obviously overlooked. That must be the case, because with all the preachers, teachers, and scholars we have on this board I'm sure that you would be eager to answer any questions, and certainly wouldn't ignore one because it was too hard. Surely someone can answer a few questions from a simple country bumpkin like myself.
We've gone round and round, up and down, and sideways in our discussions about "works"--more specifically baptism, and whether or not it is a "work" as defined in Ephesians 2:8,9. "8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:9Not of works, lest any man should boast. "
Obviously I don't believe it is a "work", because baptism isn't something we invented, but rather is commanded(it's not of ourselves), and it's no great feat that takes any special skills (nothing to boast of). However, the argument seems to be that, since it's a physical action, then it's a work. That brings me to the questions that were "overlooked".
When Naaman dipped in the river Jordan seven times to be cleansed of his leprosy, did he earn that cleansing, or was it a gift?Gift..recieved from obeyingWhy was he not cleansed when he believed what the prophet Elisha told him to do, or when he decided he would do it, rather than after he had completed doing exactly what he was told? II Kings 5:1-14. Had to obey..
On a similar note, did the children of Israel earn or work for the city of Jericho by marching and shouting and blowing trumpets, or was it a gift from God?Gift..recieved when obeyed.Again, why weren't they allowed to overtake the city when they decided to obey? Then they could have marched and shouted and blown trumpetsat their convenience later on. Why didn't the walls fall when Joshua made up his mind that he was going to do exactly what God told him to? Why didn't the walls fall after 2 days of marching, or 3? The Bible says the walls fell and the city was delivered unto them only after they had done exactly what God commanded them to do.Amen Did that make it any less a gift? Joshua 6:1-10
I think I know why these questions were "overlooked", and invite anyone who cares to correct me. I think it's obvious that Naaman's cleansing and the city of Jericho were gifts from God to his obedient servants.That's correct.However, if you agree with me on that note, and say that these were gifts, you know you are going to theologically shoot yourself in the foot.Why is that..The reason is obvious--one of the primary arguments against baptism being an essential command to recieve the gift of salvation is "A gift it free! Saying that baptism is essential is saying you have to earn salvation! You are saying Christ's blood wasn't enough!" Etc, etc. lost me...please explain the words in purple..Thanks Chad..
Well, was God not powerful enough to cleanse Naaman without Naaman "helping" by being obedient?yes.. Was God not powerful enough to bring down the walls of Jericho without the Israelites "helping" by being obedient?Yes. Even though these servants of God were required to be obedient and obey the specific instructions given to them, were the things they were given any less gifts? no
I'll even post my non-scripturalexample again. Your mother (grandmother, sister-in-law, aunt--you get the point) lovingly prepares a huge meal for you. She does all the work herself, from gathering the food, to washing it, to preparing it, to setting the table with fine china. She gets it all completed and ready, then offers you the invitation to come and eat. In order to partake, you have to get out of your recliner, make your way to the table, fix your plate, cut it up (or, if you are from the South, pick it up and bite it off), chew, and swallow. Wow--you had to do all that work yourself to get that food into your body--therefore that must mean that tremendous feast that was laid out before you wasn't a gift at all, because you had to work to get nourishment from it! it.Wrong it was a gift..you had to put forth an effort to recieve
I think my point is obvious, but I'll say it anyway. I'm not trying to be belligerent, or a smart aleck, or anything like that. I'm trying to get some folks here to THINK, to use the instructions God gave us rather than base their salvation on tradition, what grandma and grandpa taught them, what you have believed for the past 75 years, what the preacher that touched your life and made you aware of your condition was had told you.........anything other than what the Bible plainly tells us.
Just because the act of being submerged in water requires your concious and physical participation does not classify it as a work as described in Ephesians 2:8,9. Again, it is a command from God (not of ourselves), and it is no great feat to accomplish (lest any man should boast). please explain lost me again.sorry.
I sincerely welcome any scriptural replies, and would very much appreciate your participation.
Chuck, I'm just trying to get some folks to use their brains and the Bible, at the same time. A lot of folks here will argue that baptism is a "work", not a requirement, something you do after you become a Christian, etc. I'm comparing the physical act of baptism with the physical acts I described. One of the main arguments against baptism being a requirement for salvation is because it's called a "work", and if you work then what you recieve isn't a gift. I don't think anyone will argue that Naaman's cleansing was anything less than a gift, or that the city of Jericho was anything less than a gift--but I am sure that many of the same people who would say these were gifts--even though they required the same concious, physical participation (just more of it)--are the same ones that will try to classify baptism for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38), to get into Christ (Romans 6:3), to put on Christ (Galatians 3:27), to be saved (Mark 16:16, I Peter 3:21), etc. as a "work", simply because it is something we do.
The verses from Ephesians are used in an attemptto "prove" that literal water baptism is a "work". I think it's obvious that baptism in no way fits the definition of a work asdescribed there.
Chad
__________________
"We can have no '50-50' allegiance in this country. Either a man is an American and nothing else, or he is not an American at all."-- Theodore Roosevelt
A wise man's heart is at his right hand; but a fool's heart at his left. Ecclesiasties 10:2
The last four letters in American..........I Can
The last four letters in Republican........I Can
The last four letters in Democrats.........Rats
Chuck, I'm just trying to get some folks to use their brains and the Bible, at the same time. A lot of folks here will argue that baptism is a "work", not a requirement, something you do after you become a Christian, etc.I beleive it's a requirement becasue of John 3.I'm comparing the physical act of baptism with the physical acts I described. One of the main arguments against baptism being a requirement for salvation is because it's called a "work", and if you work then what you recieve isn't a gift.I see it as obedience..none the less Baptism is a requirement..The works thing I beleive is simply a play on words..I beleive every Christian on here has been baptized..becaus eJohn 3 tells them toI don't think anyone will argue that Naaman's cleansing was anything less than a gift, or that the city of Jericho was anything less than a gift--but I am sure that many of the same people who would say these were gifts--even though they required the same concious, physical participation (just more of it)--are the same ones that will try to classify baptism for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38), to get into Christ (Romans 6:3), to put on Christ (Galatians 3:27), to be saved (Mark 16:16, I Peter 3:21), etc. as a "work", simply because it is something we do.
The verses from Ephesians are used in an attemptto "prove" that literal water baptism is a "work". I think it's obvious that baptism in no way fits the definition of a work asdescribed there.
Chad
I will say a magor problem in our thinking is your view on the Holy Spirit.. tied in with this issue right here..Although I agreed this was all obedience most of us see our spirit and God's Spirit working together to make that happen.
Whereas you put the responsibility totally on the man to obey..God to recieve..
None the less obedience is taking place and the same outcome Salvation
It is man's responsibility to obey. We have a free will and can make the choice to obey, or not.
I don't believe that getting dunked for whatever reason equal a scriptural baptism. The Bible says it's for remission of sins, to get into Christ, to put on Christ, and to be saved. There's no mention of baptism in order to join a congregation, etc.
I see it the same as any other act of obedience. If you confess Christ with the mouth, but don't mean it, what good is it? If you say you repent, but really don't, what have you done? I don't believe that just going through the motions will cut it--you have to do the right thing, in the right way, for the right reason. That's my opinion anyway.
Going to call it a night--have a good one!
Chad
__________________
"We can have no '50-50' allegiance in this country. Either a man is an American and nothing else, or he is not an American at all."-- Theodore Roosevelt
A wise man's heart is at his right hand; but a fool's heart at his left. Ecclesiasties 10:2
The last four letters in American..........I Can
The last four letters in Republican........I Can
The last four letters in Democrats.........Rats
It is man's responsibility to obey.True.. We have a free will and can make the choice to obey, or not. ok...I'll buy that.
I don't believe that getting dunked for whatever reason equal a scriptural baptism.No and I'm sure most on here made a conscious desision expect for the infant baptisms..The Bible says it's for remission of sins, to get into Christ, to put on Christ, and to be saved.//I can see that reasoning when reading Romans 6..no arguement there..There's no mention of baptism in order to join a congregation, etc. I agree here as well
I see it the same as any other act of obedience. If you confess Christ with the mouth, but don't mean it, what good is it?Agreed If you say you repent, but really don't, what have you done? Fell [8D] I don't believe that just going through the motions will cut it--you have to do the right thing, in the right way, for the right reason. That's my opinion anyway. I'm sure everyone would agree with that on here Chad..
Well, I know it's early yet, but so far I'm very dissapointed. I was hoping for some insight here. I know several of you don't agree, but I thought surely some of you could give a scriptural reason for it.
Chuck, thank you for your participation. I'll touch back on where we left off.
Like I said, I believe that in order for baptism to be scriptural, rather than just a ceremonial dunking, it has to be done in the way the Bible tells us. As I understand it, there are some beliefs that have a person profess they are getting baptized because they have already been saved. That is not scriptural, there's no example of anything close to that in the Bible--therefore, in my opinion, it's not a scriptural baptism.
It's like the examples I gave. You don't get saved, then get baptized, any more than Naaman was first cleansed, then went and dipped in the river Jordan seven times because he was cleansed. The walls of Jericho didn't fall, then the Israelites decided to go ahead and march and shout and blow trumpets because the city had already been delivered to them. You don't get full, then because of that decide to go sit down and eat. You don't stick flour, eggs, sugar, etc. in the oven and bake it, then afterwards decide to mix it up and have a cake.
I'm still hoping for a scriptural answer here, from those who will argue that baptism has nothing to do with salvation.
Chad
__________________
"We can have no '50-50' allegiance in this country. Either a man is an American and nothing else, or he is not an American at all."-- Theodore Roosevelt
A wise man's heart is at his right hand; but a fool's heart at his left. Ecclesiasties 10:2
The last four letters in American..........I Can
The last four letters in Republican........I Can
The last four letters in Democrats.........Rats
Just moving this back up for tomorrow morning. Surely some brave soul will be willing to tackle such simple questions? Think I'll change the title of the thread too, just to be sure it doesn't get overlooked.
Chad
__________________
"We can have no '50-50' allegiance in this country. Either a man is an American and nothing else, or he is not an American at all."-- Theodore Roosevelt
A wise man's heart is at his right hand; but a fool's heart at his left. Ecclesiasties 10:2
The last four letters in American..........I Can
The last four letters in Republican........I Can
The last four letters in Democrats.........Rats
Any Takers?
Surely someone can answer a few questions from a simple country bumpkin like myself.
