logo
 

Go Back   HuntingNet.com Forums > Non Hunting > Religion

Religion Discuss how your religious views affect your hunting lifestyle. All religions are welcome to post.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 11-06-2007, 08:25 PM   #1
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location:
Posts: 83
Default Lordship

In light of some other discussions upon the message boards here, this dissertation by a prominent teacher of theology may help. I agree with some parts and disagree with other parts. Still, there is value in reading the views of others--even those we disagree with. Surely, iron sharpens iron...doesn't it?

Joe

__________________________________________


Understanding the Lordship Controversy*
James I. Packer

[hr]


If, ten years ago, you had told me that I would live to see literate evangelicals, some with doctorates and a seminary teaching record, arguing for the reality of an eternal salvation, divinely guaranteed, that may have in it no repentance, no discipleship, no behavioral change, no practical acknowledgment of Christ as Lord of one's life, and no perseverance in faith, I would have told you that you were out of your mind. Stark, staring bonkers, is the British phrase I would probably have used. But now the thing has happened. In The Gospel Under Siege (1981) and Absolutely Free! (1989), Zane Hodges, for one, maintains all these positions as essential to the Christian message arguing that without them the Gospel gets lost in legalism. Wow.

Nor is this all. Hodges lashes the historic reformational account of the Gospel, which he labels "Lordship salvation," as a form of works-righteousness, because it affirms that repentance - turning from sin to serve Jesus as one's Lord - is as necessary for salvation as faith - turning from self-reliance to trust Jesus as one's Savior. Such repentance, says Hodges, is a work, and justification is through faith apart from works. To preach and teach in reformational terms is to compromise the grace of the Gospel. It is vital, says Hodges, to see that there is no necessary connection between saving faith and good works at any stage.

Hodges comes out of that branch of the dispensationalist stable which has consistently assured everyone that by biblical standards Reformed theology is systematically off center and misshapen. Hodges' argumentation had already in essence appeared in the Scofield Bible and the writings of Lewis Sperry Chafer and Charles Ryrie. He might not have attracted much notice had not a distinguished fellow-dispensationalist with a Reformed soteriology, John MacArthur, Jr., attacked his view in The Gospel According to Jesus (1988), a strongly worded book with forewords by Boice and Packer. Absolutely Free! was Hodges' reply to MacArthur.

It is an odd situation. Both sides proclaim that God's grace is absolutely free, that justification is absolutely central, that faith is absolutely necessary for salvation - and that the other side's account of what it means to be a Christian is absolutely wrong. Hodges calls MacArthur's position "a radical rewriting of the Gospel," "Satanic at its core," which has "turned the meaning of faith upside down," destroying the ground of assurance and producing doctrine that the New Testament writers would find unrecognizable. MacArthur calls Hodges' position a "tragic error" that "destroys the Gospel," "promises a false peace," "produces a false evangelism," and "offers a false hope." What, we ask, is the point of cleavage that so drastically divides men who seemed to agree on so much? The question is not hard to answer. It has to do with the nature of faith.

Hodges defines faith in exclusively intellectual terms, as mental assent to what God tells us in the Gospel. This intellectualism recalls the Roman Catholic conception of faith as believing what the church teaches. It corresponds exactly to that of the eighteenth-century Scottish eccentric Robert Sandeman, who affirmed that "everyone who is persuaded that the event (Christ's atoning death) actually happened as testified by the apostles is justified." It corresponds also to the view of Karl Barth, for whom faith is simply believing that because of Christ's death and resurrection one is already justified and an heir of eternal life, as is everybody else.

By contrast, faith according to reformational teaching is a whole-souled reality with an affectional and volitional aspect as well as an intellectual one. It is, as the seventeenth-century analysts put it, notitia (factual knowledge), assensus (glad acceptance), and fiducia (personal trust in a personal Savior, as well as in His promises). It is a principle of new activity, as the Westminster Confession brings out:

By faith, a Christian believeth to be true whatsoever is revealed in the Word--yielding obedience to the commands, trembling at the threatenings, and embracing the promises of God. But the principal acts of saving faith are accepting, receiving, and resting upon Christ alone for justification, sanctification, and eternal life, by virtue of the covenant of grace (XIV 2).

Clearly, if the intellectualism of Hodges, Sandeman, and Barth is right, Westminster confuses, misplacing the emphasis. Equally clear, if Westminster is right, what Hodges, Sandeman, and Barth define is less than faith, and will not of itself bring salvation.

As is apparent, I think Hodges is wrong, and ruinously so. I find his doctrine of faith involving four major errors.

The first is an error about Christ.
Is Christ divided, or divisible? Has not God joined the three roles of prophet (teacher), priest (atoner), and king (Lord and Master) in the mediatorial office of His Son? Does He not in Scripture require mankind to relate positively to each? Does not Christ's own Gospel teaching, well set out by MacArthur, show that He Himself does not accept the separating of salvation from discipleship, whereby He is acknowledged and taken as Savior but rejected as Lord? My answer is not Hodges' answer, and his teaching does not seem to me to honor my Savior.

The second is an error about works.
Hodges equates faith as a psychological act ("closing with Christ," as the Puritans put it) with faith as a meritorious work, and so argues that to call for active commitment to discipleship as part of a saving response to the Gospel is to teach works-righteousness. But this is a confusion. Every act of faith, psychologically regarded, is a matter of doing something (knowing is as much a mental act as are trusting, receiving, and resolving to obey); yet no act of faith ever presents itself to its doer as anything but a means of receiving undeserved mercy in some form. Hodges' inability to distinguish faith as an act from faith as a work makes him increase, rather than dispel, the confusion about the terms of the Gospel that he rightly sees as bedeviling us today.

The third is an error about repentance.
In Scripture, repentance and faith go inseparably together; repentance means turning from sin, faith means turning to Jesus. Dispensationalists do not always observe this connection. Some, fastening onto the etymology of repentance in Greek (metanoia), explain it as merely a change of mind about who Jesus is; Hodges, seeing that repentance means in Scripture a change of life, detaches it from the way of salvation (thus contradicting the Westminster Confession, which on the basis of Luke 13:3, 26[/size][/color]27, says that "none may expect pardon without it") and depicts it as a voluntary adjustment to God that may come before salvation or after salvation or never at all. To say the least, he fails to convince.

The fourth is an error about regeneration.
When Scripture speaks of regeneration, which it represents as a new birth, a quickening of the dead, what is in view is an inner transformation of one's being, or "heart," which makes it impossible for one to go on living under sin's sway as one lived before. The effect of regeneration is that now one wants, from the bottom of one's heart, to know, love, serve, trust, obey, and honor the Father and the Son, so that obedient devotion and discipleship spontaneously spring up where there was only resentful hostility to God before. Hodges' account of Christian discipleship as a prudent and fulfilling, though not a necessary option, shows that he does not understand this at all. In particular, he does not see that the faith that justifies only appears as an expression of a regenerate heart.

The pastoral effect of this teaching can only be to produce what the Puritans called "Gospel hypocrites" - persons who have been told that they are Christians, eternally secure, because they believe that Christ died for them, when their hearts are unchanged and they have no personal commitment to Christ at all. I know this, for I was just such a Gospel hypocrite for two years before God mercifully made me aware of my unconverted state. If I seem harsh in my critique of Hodges' redefinition of faith as barren intellectual formalism, you must remember that once I almost lost my soul through assuming what Hodges teaches, and a burned child always thereafter dreads the fire.

[hr]


*From: Tabletalk, May, 1991, published by Ligonier Ministries, Inc., Orlando, FL
About the author: James I. Packer was born in Gloucestershire, England in 1926. In 1952 he was ordained as a minister in the Church of England. He was educated at Oxford University (BA, 1948, MA and D.Phil., 1954). He became recognized as a leader in the Evangelical movement in the Church of England. In 1978, he signed the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy, which affirmed the conservative position on inerrancy. In 1979 he moved to Vancouver, Canada, where he has served as Professor of Systematic and Historical Theology at Regent College.
Ordinerryjoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2007, 05:34 AM   #2
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: georgia
Posts: 3,297
Default RE: Lordship

Great clarification. Tha is exactly what I just wrote in the other thread. It is exactly what I have been trying to say all along. The confusion has always been in the definition of faith, and those who have misunderstood that faith is a mere intellectual acknowledgement of truth.It also clarifies what I have been saying all along about faith and repentance being inseparable. It is like going through a door from one room to another. You can't pass through the door to the one room without leaving the other behind. Repentance toward God,from sin, and faith to our LORD Jesus. It is exactly what Romans 6 tells us. How can we continue in sin so that grace may abound--we can't, because it is sin that we are saved from, by grace through faith. Our resolve is to follow Him,and we soon find out , as our reslolve will be tested, just as it always has been, through trials and testings, if our resolve, our faith, is anything less than complete. It is an all or nothing proposition,like the old hymn--I have decided to follow Jesus, no turning back, no turning back.The tests wil also reveal if it is self reliance, or if one still holds the notion that they can somehow in any fashion qualify themselves by self effort. Our inconsistencies and failures always remind us that without the grace of God, and the provision of righteousness through Christ's death burial and resurrection, that it would be a lost cause.
Thanks Joe for this .BTW, have you ever read J. I. Packer's book, 'Knowing God'? It is a really good and classic book.It was required reading when I was in college.
manuman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2007, 08:00 AM   #3
LBR
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Mississippi USA
Posts: 10,247
Default RE: Lordship

Although that copy and paste "bashes" an individual and his beliefs, I don't see any reason to pull it. (inside joke for those of you who are scratching your head)

Quote:
Hodges lashes the historic reformational account of the Gospel, which he labels "Lordship salvation," as a form of works-righteousness, because it affirms that repentance - turning from sin to serve Jesus as one's Lord - is as necessary for salvation as faith - turning from self-reliance to trust Jesus as one's Savior. Such repentance, says Hodges, is a work, and justification is through faith apart from works.
Although I don't agree with this Hodges fellow at all, at least he is consistent in his belief. He understands that you can't do something and nothing at the same time, and if you do something then it can be considered a "work", or relying on yourself or your actions for your salvation, etc. I think he's off the wall, but at least he doesn't seem to have a double standard.

Thanks for posting that Joe--it's an interesting read.

Chad
__________________
"We can have no '50-50' allegiance in this country. Either a man is an American and nothing else, or he is not an American at all."-- Theodore Roosevelt

A wise man's heart is at his right hand; but a fool's heart at his left. Ecclesiasties 10:2

The last four letters in American..........I Can
The last four letters in Republican........I Can
The last four letters in Democrats.........Rats



LBR is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2007, 04:43 PM   #4
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location:
Posts: 83
Default RE: Lordship

LBR and Manuman, I'm glad you enjoyed Dr. Packer's writings. I read allthe books he mentioned by Zane Hodges, Ryrie, and MacArthur. The Lordship debate was a huge argument among many evangelicals a few years back. LBR, you are right....Hodges holds some really different views! Manuman, yes, I have read "Knowing God" by Packer. In fact, I have read it 3 or 4 times. It is a wonderful treatise that I still consult occasionally. I enjoy reading all kinds of views which are different than my own. It helps to solidify my own beliefs. Keep up the good discussions fellas....and don't become too upset with each other.Our views of faith are usually zealously held. Hey,....nothin' wrong with that!

Joe
Ordinerryjoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2007, 07:42 PM   #5
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: georgia
Posts: 3,297
Default RE: Lordship

Quote:
ORIGINAL: LBR

Although that copy and paste "bashes" an individual and his beliefs, I don't see any reason to pull it. (inside joke for those of you who are scratching your head)
Chad, there is no comparison here as Packer is presenting , second hand, and presenting such 'bashing' as being negative, in an entirely different manner. It is not being condoned or confirmed. I am hoping that we can get beyond these types of needless jabs in the future.
Quote:
Hodges lashes the historic reformational account of the Gospel, which he labels "Lordship salvation," as a form of works-righteousness, because it affirms that repentance - turning from sin to serve Jesus as one's Lord - is as necessary for salvation as faith - turning from self-reliance to trust Jesus as one's Savior. Such repentance, says Hodges, is a work, and justification is through faith apart from works.
Although I don't agree with this Hodges fellow at all, at least he is consistent in his belief. He understands that you can't do something and nothing at the same time, and if you do something then it can be considered a "work", or relying on yourself or your actions for your salvation, etc. I think he's off the wall, but at least he doesn't seem to have a double standard.
Packer is the one that is consistent and exposing an inconsistent and unscriptural misinterpretation, along with Hodges mistaking faith for being simply an acknowledgement of truth--which is error.
Thanks for posting that Joe--it's an interesting read.

Chad
manuman is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The Lordship Of Christ Leafrivermac Religion 7 02-26-2008 11:52 AM
Lordship Clint. Religion 13 06-08-2004 10:52 AM

 

All times are GMT -8. The time now is 03:49 AM.