Much has been said about those on this board who believe in a "works based salvation". I would like to know just who these folks are as I haven't heard of anyone that I can recall making such a declaration of faith. Is there any here that believe we are saved by "our" works? I for one don't believe that, even though some tell me thatI believe it.
What does "believe" mean? A dictionary defination is: 1. Except as true or real. 2.have faith in (a person or thing): trust. 3. think (somebody) tells the truth. 4. have a religious belief. 5. think; suppose.
One can except God as real and true, but never plan to serve him in any way, yet meets the requirement of believing. Is such a one saved the moment he believes? Is he at that moment cleansed, justified, and his sins remitted?
One hears the Gospel preached and thinks the minister has told him the truth, yet walks away unchanged in his purposeof life and way of living. Has the blood been applied to the unchanged hearer who believes he was told the truth? Is he saved that very moment?
One hears a preacher present the Gospel and declares he already has a belief. Momma and Daddy were this, therefore I am also ofthis belief although he has never done anything about that so called belief. Does that apply the blood to his heart? Does the fact that he a believer according to the definition of the dictionary mean that he is saved?
If the answer is no to any of these questions, we must ask, when and how is the blood applied to the one who already believes. How is remission accessed by a sinner who believes? what justifies one andsets him apart unto the Lord?
Please give scriptural references to show how sinners in the bible had the blood applied to their hearts and lives. When, and at what point in their conversion did this take place.
Take heed to thyself and unto the doctrine, for in doing so, thou shalt both save thyself and them that hear thee.
Those of Berea were more noble than those of Thessalonica in that they searched the scriptures daily whether these thing be so.
[23] For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
[24] Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: [25] Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
[26] To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
[27] Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
[28] Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deedsof the law.
[29] Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: [30] Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
[31] Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Turkey, Very good scriptures and as Chad says so often, your post is 100% truth, but is it 100% of the truth? or is it a part of the total picture? Let me ask you a question from your scripture given.
[26] To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Does "believeth" show a continueing to believe, or an acknowledging of truth and turning away from it without obeying? Doesn't the scripture say that if ANY man hath not the Spirit, he is none of his? Doesn't the scripture also say that we are ALL baptized into one Spirit? Is that one Spirit the Holy Ghost of which we are commanded to be filled with? If this be so, this is an important question. To whom is the Holy Ghost given? Acts 5:37 He gave the Holy Ghost to them that obeyed him. In light of these scriptures, is one saved without obedience? How do we become saved the very moment we believe, and yet not receive the Spirit which is essential to salvation, until we obey him?
1 Cor. 15:1-2 Moreover, brethern, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; V:2 By which ye are SAVED, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto unto , unless ye have BELIEVED IN VAIN.
If one is saved the very moment he believes, how is he then saved by keeping something in memory? If believing washes one in the blood of Christ, how can that be in vain?
What you are calling believing is not faith, but pure mental assent or acknowledgement that something is true. That is not and never has been faith. That is exactly what James is talking about when he says that the demons believe and tremble. Here is where the confusion lies in what you term as faith or believing and what you term as obedience. What we obey, firstly, is the command to put our faith in the gospel, which is more than just acknowedging it as being true.Jesus said we must be born again, and that is only accomplished in yielding to the call of the Spirit, His conviction, His illuminating ones mind to who Christ is, and then the choice is made as to whether one will surrender their will, repentance, to the will of God, trusting the very control of tehir lives to Him b faith.Either you are in control or He is. Obedience to the Lord can only be carried out after one has become His child through faith and repentance. Then and only then can one begin a life of obedience since without faith it is impossible to please Him. Then we begin to follow with beeing baptised, and growing in the grace and knowledge of Christ, because we are born into His kingdom, by the work of the Spirit of God--we are His workmanship created UNTO good works. No man comes unto the Father unless he is drawn by the Spirit. It is not some whim of man to one day decide to become 'saved', any more than it is to become 'unsaved'.
Seems that Jesus spoke of two parts in regard to the new birth . . .water and Spirit. But He only spoke of one new birth (John 3:3-5). The Spirit, water, and blood agree in one (1John 5:8). There is only one baptism (Eph 4:5) . . .composed of both water and Spirit, and this one baptism places us in the body of Christ (Romans 6:3-4, Gal 3:27, 1Cor 12:13)
Seems that whatever repentance, water baptism, and the Spirit baptism accomplish individually, the total work of conversion is completed in the union of the three.
To focus on one aspect and consider another aspect to be unnessesary is to go against the Bible way . . .which was to experiance all three.
But what got me to thinking about this was the question "when is the blood applied?" . . . .Since the new birth is a single indivisible whole, it would seem that the blood is applied thruout the whole process??
IMO, the blood is applied at the first hearing of the Gosple to enable us to seek God . . .at repentance to enable us to turn away from sin, . . .at water baptism to remit sin, . . . .and at Spirit baptism to enable us to recieve God's Spirit. I believe the blood is applied thruout the process from the hearing of the Word until Christ returns for His church??
By the way . . .I agree with you Snooky, works do not save us . . . .thats like saying I won the battle myself because I got my dad to fight it for me. I believe we have to make a lot of choices, effort, anf sacrifice. But our choices are for Christ, our effort is for Christ, sacrifice for Christ, we fight our battles aginst sin by His Spirit . . . .Jesus Christ saves us, nothing or no one else, it's all Jesus.
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__________________ And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
One thing is to be Saved (Forgiven) and another maintaining yourself in the faith.
Can one who calls himself saved not do what the Father Commands and not produced the Fruits for which he was grafted ?
A so call believer who does not produce the fruits (Works)for which he was created, is like the fig tree Yeshua Cursed, it is a dead stump.
Don't confuse forgiveness(salvation) and the works of the Spirit.
"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. Do all things without complaining and disputing, that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, holding fast the word of life, so that I may rejoice in the day of Christ that I have not run in vain or labored in vain."Phil 2
If we want to be saved from our sins, there are things that we must do in order to receive the free gift of salvation. We must individually work out our salvation, as the apostle Paul instructs. This obviously is going to require obedience. The Hebrew writer said of Christ that, ".having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him."" (Hebrews 5:9;
Salvation comes from the grace of God, but we can only receive this gift that God wants us to have when we obey His gospel, and this is how we begin to work out our own salvation. We must hear the word, for "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10:17). We must believe that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. As Jesus said: "For if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24). We must repent of our sins: "Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent" (Acts 17:30) We must be baptized for the remission of sin, as the apostle Peter taught, to: "Repent and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins" (Acts 2:38). And if we have done all of those things, we must live faithfully until we die, or until the Lord returns, making sure that we a follow and obey all the commands of Christ: "Whosoever transgresses, and abides not in the doctrine of Christ, does not have God. He that abides in the doctrine of Christ, he has both the Father and the Son" (II John 9).
Taking care of your own salvation is not a selfish ploy; it is a requirement, and completely necessary if you are ever going to help others to have a right relationship with God. Jesus speaks about this in the sermon on the Mount:
The Thief On the Cross is usually an example for those who teach the "lazy gospel"that of nothing required to obtained salvation, they say the thief did not do anything to obtain salvation' well that is not at all true.
The thief rebuked his companion, the thief recognized who Yeshua was, the thief repented and asked to be forgiven, for which Yeshua gave him Paradise.
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The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. Zephaniah 1:14
פרץ
Salvation comes from the grace of God, but we can only receive this gift that God wants us to have when we obey His gospel, and this is how we begin to work out our own salvation. We must hear the word, for "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10:17). We must believe that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. As Jesus said: "For if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24). We must repent of our sins: "Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent" (Acts 17:30) We must be baptized for the remission of sin, as the apostle Peter taught, to: "Repent and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins" (Acts 2:38). And if we have done all of those things, we must live faithfully until we die, or until the Lord returns, making sure that we a follow and obey all the commands of Christ: "Whosoever transgresses, and abides not in the doctrine of Christ, does not have God. He that abides in the doctrine of Christ, he has both the Father and the Son" (II John 9).
Mac and Alex, Here is a scripture quote that Bro Motor used in his thread, lets talk about Jesus;
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time
May be you brothers could expound on the last few word posted, "unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time". What is meant by salvation to be revealed at a later date?
One thing is to be Saved (Forgiven) and another maintaining yourself in the faith.
Can one who calls himself saved not do what the Father Commands and not produced the Fruits for which he was grafted ?
A so call believer who does not produce the fruits (Works)for which he was created, is like the fig tree Yeshua Cursed, it is a dead stump.
Don't confuse forgiveness(salvation) and the works of the Spirit.
"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. Do all things without complaining and disputing, that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, holding fast the word of life, so that I may rejoice in the day of Christ that I have not run in vain or labored in vain."Phil 2
Yes......Amen brother!
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Jesus said, "he who stands firm to the end will be saved" Mark 13:13.
Live Life in such a way that those who do not know Christ will come to know Him because they know you
working our way to heaven?
