It seems that holiness is either viewed negatively as mere suggestions that can be disregarded in the face of grace, or grace is viewed negatively as an open door to irresponsible, sinful behavior, taking God's forgiveness to mean that believers can sin as they please with no consequences.
Does anyone agree that both of these views are unbiblical and would /will /does cause spiritual problems?
__________________ And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
It seems that holiness is either viewed negatively as mere suggestions that can be disregarded in the face of grace, or grace is viewed negatively as an open door to irresponsible, sinful behavior, taking God's forgiveness to mean that believers can sin as they please with no consequences.
Does anyone agree that both of these views are unbiblical and would /will /does cause spiritual problems?
I don't view holiness negatively. God wants us to be holy. In fact He says "Be holy". Neither do I see grace in the way you mention. Grace is not a license to sin. Those who who seek to disparage the perseverance of the Savior toward the saint like to say that those who believe in an eternal salvation use grace as a license to sin. No truly saved person does that. That is simply a lie and a ploy to win an argument.
The fact is, saved people screw up. Saved people backslide. But God doesn't give up on the one who is His own. God pursues the one who is saved if he does not repent on his own. That person will experience the chastening and discipline of God. Relationship with God is forever and eternal for a saved person. Fellowship isanother matter. Sin and lack of holiness block fellowship until repentance occurs.I believe that Heaven will be full of people that some of us don't expect to be there. As a practical matter, pride is probably a bigger issue than the things this post addresses. Of course, pride is caused by a lack of holiness I suppose.
Joe,
You made some good points...especially how God disciplines his children.I've got a question for ya about eternal security.
At one place all the disciples are rejoicing because they see satan fall from heaven as lightning..Jesus said, "Rejoice not because of that ,but rejoice because your names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life..Do you think Judas Iscariot's name is in that book as well?? Was not Jesus talkingto all the disciples?..just wondering
Well, folk can point to the far edges of both sides of the subject . . .or sit on the far edges as far as that goes. Paul absolutley emphasized that we are saved by faith in Jesus, and not by our good works. . . .no question there. But James emphasized that the kind of faith that results in salvation will necessarily produce works that show evidence of that faith. Paul was concerned about people adding anything to faith that they believe is meritous for their salvation. James was concerned about people professing to have faith which is not really faith at all, but rather a lifeless mental-assent to Christ. It seems that James was attacking a distortion of Paul's teaching on justification, wherein faith is some dead dry bones religion with no subsequent behavioral changes. Even Paul found it necessary to fight against this distortion of his teaching on justification (Romans 3:8; 6:1, 15). James pointed out that if a person has genuine saving faith, works will follow after him showing evidence of that faith.
Abraham really did believe God, and his works evidenced that fact. If Abraham would have refused to offer Isaac upon the altar, it would have demonstrated a lack of faith in God's promises to him (James 2:21-24).
So, works do not save us but if there are no works then can we be sure we are saved? Do we come to God on His terms or does He come to us on our terms? Does God throw us away when we make mistakes tho we truley love Him. Can we fool God?
__________________ And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
1Pe 1:16 - Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
When dealing with this subject, on grace and holiness, I like to say, "No Change, No Jesus"
Grace is not a license to sin, but God knew we would sin, thank God for grace. If I had to depend on my holiness to get to heaven, I would fall short. But thank God for grace and for His conviction when I do mess up.
1Pe 1:16 - Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
When dealing with this subject, on grace and holiness, I like to say, "No Change, No Jesus"
Grace is not a license to sin, but God knew we would sin, thank God for grace. If I had to depend on my holiness to get to heaven, I would fall short. But thank God for grace and for His conviction when I do mess up.
Joe,
You made some good points...especially how God disciplines his children.I've got a question for ya about eternal security.
At one place all the disciples are rejoicing because they see satan fall from heaven as lightning..Jesus said, "Rejoice not because of that ,but rejoice because your names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life..Do you think Judas Iscariot's name is in that book as well?? Was not Jesus talkingto all the disciples?..just wondering
Chuck, the only reference I can find that even remotely sounds like the one you refer to is in Luke 10:1-24:
After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go. [2] He told them, "The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field. [3] Go! I am sending you out like lambs among wolves. [4] Do not take a purse or bag or sandals; and do not greet anyone on the road.
[5] "When you enter a house, first say, 'Peace to this house.' [6] If a man of peace is there, your peace will rest on him; if not, it will return to you. [7] Stay in that house, eating and drinking whatever they give you, for the worker deserves his wages. Do not move around from house to house.
[8] "When you enter a town and are welcomed, eat what is set before you. [9] Heal the sick who are there and tell them, 'The kingdom of God is near you.' [10] But when you enter a town and are not welcomed, go into its streets and say, [11] 'Even the dust of your town that sticks to our feet we wipe off against you. Yet be sure of this: The kingdom of God is near.' [12] I tell you, it will be more bearable on that day for Sodom than for that town.
[13] "Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. [14] But it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment than for you. [15] And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths.
[16] "He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."
[17] The seventy-two returned with joy and said, "Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name."
[18] He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. [19] I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you. [20] However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven."
[21] At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.
[22] "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."
[23] Then he turned to his disciples and said privately, "Blessed are the eyes that see what you see. [24] For I tell you that many prophets and kings wanted to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it."
A careful reading will reveal that the Lord was speaking to the 72 when he spoke of seeing Satan fall like lightning. He said to them, "rejoice that your names are written in Heaven." It doesn't appear that Jesus was talking to the twelve disciples until verse 23...."Then he turned to his disciples".....etc.
As for Judas, I think his fate is discussed in other places which I am sure you are familiar with. Personally, I believe Jesus knew all along who would betray Him. I don't believe Judas was ever saved....but it probably wasn't obvious to others. Likewise, we don't know for sure who is truly saved. We can be given indications by certain things in a person's life, but in the final analysis, only the Lord knows for sure what is in a man's heart.
Well, folk can point to the far edges of both sides of the subject . . .or sit on the far edges as far as that goes. Paul absolutley emphasized that we are saved by faith in Jesus, and not by our good works. . . .no question there. But James emphasized that the kind of faith that results in salvation will necessarily produce works that show evidence of that faith. Paul was concerned about people adding anything to faith that they believe is meritous for their salvation. James was concerned about people professing to have faith which is not really faith at all, but rather a lifeless mental-assent to Christ. It seems that James was attacking a distortion of Paul's teaching on justification, wherein faith is some dead dry bones religion with no subsequent behavioral changes. Even Paul found it necessary to fight against this distortion of his teaching on justification (Romans 3:8; 6:1, 15). James pointed out that if a person has genuine saving faith, works will follow after him showing evidence of that faith.
Abraham really did believe God, and his works evidenced that fact. If Abraham would have refused to offer Isaac upon the altar, it would have demonstrated a lack of faith in God's promises to him (James 2:21-24).
So, works do not save us but if there are no works then can we be sure we are saved? Do we come to God on His terms or does He come to us on our terms? Does God throw us away when we make mistakes tho we truley love Him. Can we fool God?
Leafrivermac, I liked your thoughts on Paul and James! We agree....can you believe that?...some here probably think I'm quite disagreeable!
As for Abraham, when God directed Him to do that.....I don't think that God intended for him to actually murder the boy. That's not within God's nature to do such a thing to one He loves.Nonetheless, it was stilla test. Why? I will stick my neck out here on this one...I believe that our omniscient God already knew Abraham would obey and place Isaac on the altar. So why did God tell him to do so if He already knew? I have always thought that perhaps God directed Abraham to do that so that Abraham himself would know the depth of his own faith. Is that possible in your thinking?
There is no way that I can regard God's grace as a license to sin. I know that I can receive absolution for sins I commit, but it requires sincere repentance. Without that sincere repentance there is no actual forgiveness. And believing thatI can do whatever I want becuase I can be forgiven, belies sincere repentance.
That's my take.
__________________
Proud parents of our own "Daddy's Little Girls"
I heard Jesus He drank wine and I bet we'd get along just fine.
" Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord ":Heb 12;14
__________________
The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. Zephaniah 1:14
פרץ
Holiness/Grace
