Since Evil and Suffering Exist, A Loving God Cannot

[TexasOaks]

I am going to take chapters of a book, Case for Faith by Lee Strobel and break them down to the big points of the chapters because I think it will benefit everyone to take the time to read and be definitely worth your time. I will try to make it all flow and if it doesn"™t let me know. Lets start with a:


Quote by Augustine: "œIf there is no God, why is there so much good? If there is a God, why is there so much evil?

Since Evil and Suffering Exist, A Loving God Cannot[/b]

Making Sense of Suffering

At some point in our lives we have all experienced some sort of pain and suffering. It shouldn't"™t take long to think of a personal experience or to know someone that has experience pain or suffering or even just take a quick look around the world to see all the suffering and pain.

"œWhat"™s worse, it"™s often the innocent who are victimized. "œIf only villains got broken backs or cancers, if only cheaters and crooks got Parkinson"™s disease, we should see a sort of celestial justice in the universe,"� wrote Sheldon Vanauken.

"œIf you could ask God only on question and you knew he would give you an answer, what would you ask?"� The top response, offered by 17 percent (almost one in five) of those who said they had a question was: "œWhy is there pain and suffering in the world?"�
A story of a bear, a trap, a hunter, and God to help explain why there is pain and suffering in the world.

A Bear, A Trap, A Hunter, and God

"œHow can a mere finite human be sure that infinite wisdom would not tolerate certain short range evils in order for more long range goods that we couldn't"™t foresee?"�

Let"™s look at this way, "œWould you agree that the difference between us and God is greater than the difference between us and, say a bear? The answer being YES.

"œOkay, then imagine a bear in a trap and hunter who, out of sympathy, wants to liberate him. He tries to win the bear"™s confidence but he can"™t do it, so he has to shoot the bear full of drugs. The bear, however, thinks this is an attack and that the hunter is trying to kill him. He doesn"™t realize that this is being done out of compassion.

Then, in order to get the bear out of the trap, the hunter has to push him further into the trap to release the tension on the spring. If the bear were semiconscious at that point, he would be even more convinced that the hunter was his enemy who was out to cause him suffering and pain. But the bear would be wrong. He reaches this incorrect conclusion because he"™s not a human being.

Now how can anyone be certain that"™s not an analogy between us and God? I believe God does the same to us sometimes, and we can"™t comprehend why he does it any more than the bear can understand the motivations of the hunter. As the bear could have trusted the hunter, so we can trust God."�

Evil as Evidence For God

"œYou mean that by recognizing evil you are assuming there an objective standard on which evil is based therefore testifying to the reality of God."�

Right, if I give one student a ninety and another an eighty that presupposes that one hundred is a real standard. And my point is this: if there is no God, where did we get the standard of goodness by which we judge evil as evil?"�

A Problem of Logic

"œChristians believe in five things, first God exists. Second, God is all good. Third, God is all powerful. Fourth, God is all wise. And fifth, evil exists. Now how can all those statements be true at the same time?

Lets examine three divine attributes of God being all powerful, all good, and all knowing.

God is All Powerful[/b]
[/b]
"œNow the classic defense of God against the problem of evil is that it"™s not logically possible to have free will and no possibility of moral evil. In other words, once God chose to create human beings with free will, then it was up to them, rather than to God, as to whether there was sin or not. That"™s what free means.

Then why didn"™t God create a world without human freedom? Because that would have been a world without humans. Would it have been a place without hate? Yes. A place without suffering? Yes. But it also would have been a world without love, which is the highest value in the universe. That highest good never could have been experienced. Real love, our love of each other, must involve a choice. But with the granting of that choice comes the possibility that people would choose stead to hate

The point to remember is that creating a world where there"™s free will and no possibility of sin is self contradictions and that opens up the door to people choosing evil over God, with suffering being the result.

God is All Knowing
[/b][/b]
God, if he is all wise, knows not only the present but the future. And he knows not only present good and evil but future good and evil. Is it at least possible that a loving God could deliberately tolerate horrible things because he foresees that in the long run that more people will be better and happier than if he miraculously intervened.

You see God has specifically shown us very clearly how this can work. He has demonstrated how the very worst thing that has happen in the history of the world ended up resulting in the very best thing that has ever happened in the history of the world.
The death of Jesus Christ on the cross. At the time, nobody saw how anything good could ever result from this tragedy. And yet God foresaw that the result would be the opening of heaven to human beings.

So the worst tragedy in history brought about the most glorious even in history. And if it happened there, if the ultimate evil can result in the ultimate good, it can happen elsewhere, even in our own individual lives. Here, God lifts the curtain and lets us see it. Elsewhere he simply says, TRUST ME."�

At the time of the crucifixion, the disciples couldn't"™t see how anything good could result; similarly, as we face struggles and trials and suffering, we sometimes can"™t imagine good emerging. But we"™ve seen how it did in the case of Jesus, and we can trust it will in our case too."�

God is All Good [/b]
[/b]
"œIf I sat there and did nothing while my child got fun over by a truck, I wouldn"™t be good in any sense of the word. I"™d be an evil father if I did that. And God does the equivalent of that. He sits by and refuses to perform miracles to take us our of dangers even greater than being hit by a truck. So why isn"™t he bad?

Lets explain by story, I remember when on of my daughters was about four or five years old and she was trying to thread a needle in Brownies. It was very difficult for her. Every time she tried, she hit herself in the finger and couple of times she bled. I was watching her, but she didn"™t see me. She just kept trying and trying.

My first instinct was to go and do it for her, since I saw a drop of blood. But wisely I held back, because I said to myself, She can do it. After about five minutes, she finally did it. I came out of hiding and she said, Daddy, daddy, look what I did! Look at what I did! She was so proud she had threaded the needle that she had forgotten all about the pain.

That time the pain was good thing for her. I was wise enough to have foreseen it was good for her. New, certainly God is much wiser than I was with my daughter. So it"™s at least possible that God is wise enough to foresee that we need some pain for reasons which we may not understand but which he foresees as being necessary to some eventual good. Therefore, he"™s not being evil by allowing that pain to exist.

Dentists, athletic trainers, teacher, parents all know that sometimes to be GOOD is not to be KIND. Certainly there are times when God allows suffering and deprives us of the lesser good of pleasure in order to help us toward the greater good of moral and spiritual education.

We know that moral character gets formed through hardship, through overcoming obstacles, through enduring despite difficulties. Courage for example, would be impossible in a world without pain. The apostle Paul testified to this refining quality of suffering when he wrote that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope.

Let"™s face it: we learn from the mistakes we make and the suffering they bring. The universe is a soul making machine, and part of that process is learning, maturing, and growing, through difficult and challenging and painful experiences. The point of our lives in this world isn"™t comfort, but training and preparation for eternity. Scripture tells us that even Jesus learned obedience through suffering and if that was true for him, why wouldn"™t it be even more true for us?"�

Every time you use force to prevent evil, you take away freedom. To prevent all evil, you must remove all freedom and reduce people to puppets, which means they would then lack the ability to freely choose love.

You may end up creating a world of precision that an engineer might like, maybe. But one thing"™s for sure: you"™ll lose the kind of world that a Father would want.


NEWLY ADDED:

Evil people get away with hurting others all the time. Certainly God can't consider that fair? People aren't getting away with it, justice delayed is not necessarily justice denied. Criticizing God for not doing it right now is like reading half a novel and criticizing the author for not resolving the plot. God will bring accountability at the right time, in fact, the Bible says one reason he's delaying is because some people are still following the clues and have yet to find him. He's actually delaying the consummation of history out of his great love for them.

Doesn't the sheer amount of suffering bother you? God can't exist, right? There is a problem, there can't be a dividing line.Can you say there is a God if5,999,999 people died in the Holocaust but there isn't a God if six million die? It's true that there are some instances where quantity does becomes quality. For example, boiling waternce a temperature of 212 degrees is reached, you get a new state, gas, andgas laws rather thanliquid laws apply. But suffering isn't like that. At what point doessuffering disprove the existence pg God? Nosuch point can be shown. Besides, becausewe're not God, we can't say how much suffering is needed. Maybe every singleelement in the universe is necessary. How can we know?

One purpose of suffering inhistory has been that it leads to repentance. Onlyafter suffering, only after disaster, did Old Testament Israel, do nations, do individual people turn back to God. Again, lets face it: we learn the hard way. C.S. Lewis said, God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks in our conscience, but shouts in our pains. It is his megaphone to rouse a deaf world.And of course, repentance leads to something wonderful to blessedness, since God is thesource of all joy and all life. The outcome is good, in fact, better than good.

But good people suffer just as much or sometimes more than the bad.Well, theanswer to that is that there are no good people. We still bear God's image but morally we're not. His image in us has been tarnished.The prophet Jeremiahsaid, that from theleast to the greatest, all are greedy for fain, and the prophet Isaiah said, all of us have become like one who isunclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags.

Our good deeds are stained with self interest and our demands for justice are mixed with lust for vengeance. Ironically,it's the best people who most readily recognize and admit their own shortcomings and sin.Pain and suffering are frequently the means by which we become motivated to finally surrender to God and to seek the cure of Christ. Thats what we need most desperately. That's what will bring us the supreme joy of knowing Jesus. Any suffering, the great Christians from history will tell you, is worth that result.

More coming on thistopic a little later.

[Chuck7]

This is very tough for me...

Many on here know Strut..His wife just had a liver transplant...I don't believe they had any health insurance..I wear a prayer bracelet for Shirley {His wife} and pray often. Last year an insensitive Christian made a horrific remark regarding his situation.The person was kicked off of here for the umpteenth time...but Strut has not come back here.

I've been keeping up with him through E-mail..and telephone. He called yesterday to tell me they may be putting his wife back on the liver transplant list.

Man...what canI say..Strut is the treasurer in his church.He's a prayer warrior.I met him in Missouri after he invited me to hunt. He let 4 deer walk by his stands so thatI may shoot one..He went without that year. He's a genuine believer YET...this stuff happens.I felt helpless...I'd wished I had some kind of wordto share with him..

I won't even pretend to understand why some folks suffer so much.What I do know though is if we can be part of the solution than we shouild be just that. We need to pray and do all we can to be part of the answer. This battle has been going on in Strut's life for well over 10 years. Presently he is by his wife's side in St.Louis off from work..His last words.."I put my wife first."

Please say a prayer for are ole friend Randy Moran.

God bless,

PS God's ways are not like our ways...I just know if we are doing good we should bless those who are not.
C7

[TexasOaks]

I definitely know this is a very touchy topic, especially if it has hit home or to somoneclose.Prayer from Texas thoughfor Randy.

[manuman]

I like a phrase in one of Switchfoot's songs that states, 'The shadows prove the sunshine.' I know that this is just one phase of a multileveled and very indepth predicament, which , at times, appears to be a contradiction in terms. But, the very existence of 'evil' always has the presupposition of there being a 'good'. There can be no way to define 'evil', without having 'good' as its backdrop, its basisfor defining it.There can be neither without a living and absolute Standard by which to define and to establish each, which is the supreme end and who is THE supreme being.The allowance of evil, by a sovereign and all loving God, simply is the result of moral liberty and the freedom to make choices. In His sovereignty, He has already completely contained this 'outbreak' of sin( the ultimate and total reason for any and all suffering--whether the one going through the results of our sinis doing so as the instigator or the recipient of someone else's choices.)via the person and work of Christ.When He said, It is finished!', sin for the believer has been dealt with to the uttermost by virtue of the completely adequate and all encompassing righteousness of Christ, by grace through faith, as declared by God Himself. He said, 'Come let us reason together. Though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow.' He met His own requirements in Christ, eradicating sins effects in every way, and He will ultimately and finally put every enemy under His dominion, and make them His footstool. All injustice, pain, suffering, and iniquities will be satisfied and every book balanced! This righteousness reaches beyond just the application of forgiveness of personal sins, but also encompasses to the very real and undeniable existence of every wrong suffered by any and every man. Christ makes it all right! Can we grasp the perspective in which an eternal and omniscient God allows for events and tragic events to those who, in our perspective are innocent, 'righteous', and seemingly being served an injustice? No way! By faith we accept, based on the character of God revealed through the sending of Christ, His declaration that He will indeed work all things together for our good! For those who never fall in line with His authority, they will be judged fairly, based on the level of 'light' that they did or did not respond to. Since they fail to accept teh grace afforded them, they will be judged based on theuir work.

[mudhead1s wife]

ORIGINAL: Chuck7

This is very tough for me...

Many on here know Strut..His wife just had a liver transplant...I don't believe they had any health insurance..I wear a prayer bracelet for Shirley {His wife} and pray often. Last year an insensitive Christian made a horrific remark regarding his situation.The person was kicked off of here for the umpteenth time...but Strut has not come back here.

I've been keeping up with him through E-mail..and telephone. He called yesterday to tell me they may be putting his wife back on the liver transplant list.

Man...what canI say..Strut is the treasurer in his church.He's a prayer warrior.I met him in Missouri after he invited me to hunt. He let 4 deer walk by his stands so thatI may shoot one..He went without that year. He's a genuine believer YET...this stuff happens.I felt helpless...I'd wished I had some kind of wordto share with him..

I won't even pretend to understand why some folks suffer so much.What I do know though is if we can be part of the solution than we shouild be just that. We need to pray and do all we can to be part of the answer. This battle has been going on in Strut's life for well over 10 years. Presently he is by his wife's side in St.Louis off from work..His last words.."I put my wife first."

Please say a prayer for are ole friend Randy Moran.

God bless,

PS God's ways are not like our ways...I just know if we are doing good we should bless those who are not.
C7

I will be praying for Randy, Shirley, and their family. It is very hard to see others suffer and know there is nothing we can do. Sin entered the world and now we will live with it until we die. Which the bible says that it even though it may feel an eternity it is really a short time. Josh's aunt is struggling with cancer and it is hard for his mom to understand at times too. Sickness came into play at the same time that Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden lest they eat from the tree of life. I know that my words don't bring comfort, that has to come from the only one that can, GOD!

[Chuck7]

I know that my words don't bring comfort, that has to come from the only one that can, GOD! Katrina..

All yes they dojust by responding maam they bring comfort. I've visited people before in the hospital with absolutely nothing to say..and folks will shed a tear just because you remembered them and came..Thanks for your thoughtful reply..Your a real God sent here. Don't lose your sweet spirit.many have come on here with a sweet spirit and often leave. With the wide range of differences on here you can see why some just get up and leave..I hope you stay around.

[strut]

Well, I'm back LOL, Heres the lastest on my wife Shirley, for a little background first though. We found out in about 1990 that she had a genetic disease called alpha 1 anti trepsin deficiency, Its where she is short an enzyeme in the blood that cause cirrosis of the liver or emphysema but usually not both, Anyway for about 14 years we kept a close eye on things as it slowly progressed, in the summer of 2005 she was put on the transplant list, we missed 1 liver donar in Oct. of that year, we got the call but we was just not ready, it is one heck of a decision to make. We went thru the winter, then thespring and summer of the following year and got another call on the morning of Aug 22, 2006, we went to St Louis immediately and there she recieved a new liver, the surgury went very well, we spent about 4 weeks in St louis, then came home, the next 2 months was terrible, in and out of the hospital, she had a terrible time with the rejection medicine, then about Thanksgiving she started doing alot better, we thought things were going good, she had a Dr's appt the day after Christmas at St Louis Univerisity, the next day we recieved a call and said something was wrong, the blood test were all really elevated, It has been kind of down hill from there on, come to find out she had a small blood clot in one of the arteries that feeds the liver, It supplied blood to the part of the liver where the bile ducts were, she has been in the hospital several times having them flushed, cleaned, and stinted, the Drs told us Saturday Morning that they might as well put her back on the transpant list because things was'nt going to get any better. So we are waiting on their call to see if she was accepted back on the list.

I Know without God and his help I don't know if I could have made it thru the whole deal or not not to mention Shirley, she has been the real hero here.

And I know that God is in total control and I'm thankful for that.

We do have some insurance, thank God for that, last total I have figured we was a little over 469,000 so far. God Bless you all, I hope none of you ever have to face a tranplant, if you do be sure and don't leave God out of it, he will see you thru.

Chuck you better be planning on a great hunt this fall up here, it looks like a promising year and a great number of Bucks.

[Leafrivermac]

Good to hear from you Strut. Sorry to hear of Sis Shirley's setback. My prayers are with you two. I'm believing for a turn around. God bless you both.

[Chuck7]

Thanks for filling us in Randy..
Good talking with ya tonight.
C7

[The Rev]

Yep it's good to hear from you again Strut. You guys are in our constant prayers. Hang in there brother.

And don't take Chuck hunting, we get tired of hearing how good his dinner was!. ( you know we love you Chuck)