I think the first item of business that needs to be covered is that God loves and calls women to His service just as He does men. Women are no less meaningful to God than men. Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God. That being said our roles are very different and clear in the scripture:
1 Timothy 5:14: "I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, and give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully."
Proverbs 31: 11 The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil. 12 She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life.
Titus 2:3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; 4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, 5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
To often this is considered outdated and menial task by todays standards. Are they really Menial? Raising children, caring for and running a smooth home, setting a Godly example and training young women. If this is menial stuff, I would really hate to see the hard stuff. It is Very hard work and holds a women to a high standard of loving God, her husband, her children and family and other young women.
The question... Is it Biblical for Women to serve behind the pulpit? Lets not leave it to opionions but go to the word to test it.
1 Timothy 2: 11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
A. Let women learn: Here we see the principles that Women are called to learn, learn Christ, learn scripture, Women are not excused from learning scripture, what is necessary for salvation and Godly living.
1 Timothy 2: 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
The Greek word for teach is didasko {did-as'-ko} {Strongs1321} which means 1) to teach 1a) to hold discourse with others in order to instruct them, deliver didactic discourses 1b) to be a teacher 1c) to discharge the office of a teacher, conduct one's self as a teacher 2) to teach one 2a) to impart instruction 2b) instill doctrine into one 2c) the thing taught or enjoined 2d) to explain or expound a thing 2f) to teach one something. So we see here that a woman is not to instruct, instill doctrine into, explain or expound, or teach a man.
1 Timothy 2: 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
Paul is laying out God's chain of command. The order of creation: man was created first, and given original authority. Paul sees Adam's authority as derived from God, and Eve's authority as derived from Adam. Many believers will challenge Paul's instruction on Women in leadership and teaching men, quoting that this was in the old day. Making claim that we need not adhere to those "old ways." However the Apostle Paul anticipated a rejection of this teaching therefore went a step further and wrote:
1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? 37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
Paul here is not expressing his personal opionion on anything but his words are the words of God. To say God's word applied in the old days and not today is to say God changes or changed his mind.
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
WHAT ABOUT DEBORAH?
It would seem that many of women preachers and their male advocates hold to their position knowing full-well that it is contrary to scripture. Often, when confronted, they will simply say that they know what the Bible says but that the passages in question are not for our dispensation. Or, the woman preacher herself, will appeal to her own experience claiming that it was God who has called them (as though God would do anything contrary to His Word?), often they are just indignant. But occasionally, you come across someone who will attempt to make a biblical case for women preachers. When they do, it seems that without fail they appeal to the judgeship of Deborah judges 4
There are many that do not know how to handle this argument! Once the subject is researched the conclusion is simple. The first thing discovered was that Deborah lived at the time when "every man did that which was right in his own eyes"
Judges 17:6 In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes.
Judges 21:25 In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.
We read that God raised up Othniel as a Judge.
Judges 3:9 And when the children of Israel cried unto the LORD, the LORD raised up a deliverer to the children of Israel, who delivered them, even Othniel the son of Kenaz, Caleb's younger brother.
God raised up Gideon as a judge.
Judges 6:12-And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him, and said unto him, The LORD is with thee, thou mighty man of valour. 13 And Gideon said unto him, Oh my Lord, if the LORD be with us, why then is all this befallen us? and where be all his miracles which our fathers told us of, saying, Did not the LORD bring us up from Egypt? but now the LORD hath forsaken us, and delivered us into the hands of the Midianites. 14 And the LORD looked upon him, and said, Go in this thy might, and thou shalt save Israel from the hand of the Midianites: have not I sent thee?
God raised up Samson as a judge.
Judges 13:24 And the woman bare a son, and called his name Samson: and the child grew, and the LORD blessed him. 25 And the Spirit of the LORD began to move him at times in the camp of Dan between Zorah and Eshtaol.
But with Deborah, we learn as much from what the Bible does not say as in what it does say. Regarding Deborah we read: "she judged Israel at that time"
Judges 4:4 And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.
Deborah's judgeship was without evidence of devine calling. Her great accomplishment was to conquer Sisera. Yet we read in Hebrews it was Barak's faith that wrought this victory.
Hebrews 11: 32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: 33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.
In Judges 4:8 we read that Barak was a coward who would only go if Deborah went with him. Judges 4:8 and Barak said unto her, If thou wilt go with me, then I will go: but if thou wilt not go with me, then I will not go. Deborah appears to be the one with the faith. But God gives Barak the credit in Hebrews 11: 32
The other argument given in support of women preachers is that Deborah was called a "prophetess"
Judges 4:4 And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.
However when you look back at the Hebrew word "nebiyah" the word the KJV translates here to "prophetess" Strong's Concordance defines it as "a prophets wife." Strongs Number 05031.. So Deborah was neither a God called preacher, a God called judge, or a woman of greater than ordinary faith (remember that Barak is the one, not Deborah, accounted by God to have been the vessel of faith in Hebrews 11). Further, her being called a "prophetess" is accepted look at what she by her own admission said in Judges 4:5 That Barak was the one called by God. Why would God call two judges too Judge Isreal at the same time? Why In Hebrews 11:32 is Barak listed as the one God called? God called Barak. Deborah knew it was not God's will that she go, but for Barak to do it.
This does not mean that women are inferior to men; or that they have no place in Gods work. The Holy Scriptures provide several examples of women God used:
Queen Esther, saved her people by being obedient to God's will.
Ruth, who once again through obedience left her land of idols and famine to become a woman of God thus she was used in the bloodline of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Priscilla, a woman who stood by her husband and choose to serve Christ in a time that it could have cost her, her own life. Yet, she persevered and helped the early church through her hospitality and commitment to the Great Commission.
Eunice, mother of Timothy who being obedient to her true calling of motherhood raised her son to know the Lord, in which God used to direct, guide and be a help to the Apostle Paul in the building and teaching the church.
None of these Women took authority over men-- their good deeds followed their obedience to God and His role for them. Any Christian woman who is not satisfied with this pattern, who feels she must stand behind a pulpit to be fulfilled really needs to take a step back and refocus on His true calling of her.
There lies NO possible room to say that God allowed for a Woman to be leader in the church be it Pastor, Deacon, Elder or Bishop.
Qualifications for one Overseeing the church or the Pastor.
First Timothy chapter 3:
1This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
8Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
9Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
10And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
11Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
12Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
13For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
How can we even question this scripture? It is quiet clear that a deacon MUST be a man, have one wife, and rule his house well.
How could a woman possibly be a pastor when she is forbidden to teach or to have any authority over men? Women can only be pastors if they openly disobey the Bible's teaching. One may ask why or how this situation has become so controversial and so misconstrued?
Men and women were made for different roles, neither role being better than the other, but designed to compliment each other. If indeed we take the scripture literally as it was intended to be then we see that the New Testament affirms that men are to be the leaders in the home and church.
In Ezekiel 22:30, we find a similar situation that we face today. God sought for a man, but couldn´t find any. This country lacks men standing up and taking charge. Too many men are ducking responsibilities not only in Church, but in their household as well. Just because a man does not want to stand up and do what God calls him to do, does not make it right for a woman to stand up and take the pulpit.
What about the women preachers today who claim to be called by God to be preachers? How can we know if they are telling the truth or not? The apostle John wrote
1 John 4:1"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world."
The way we test the spirits is to compare what they teach to the Word of God. If what they teach or practice is contrary to the Word of God, we can know without a doubt that they are false. When we read the words of the Holy Spirit teaching us that women are to keep silent in the church, and then we hear women claiming to be called to preach by the Spirit, we can know that they are either deliberate liars or they have been deceived by a spirit other than the Holy Spirit.
They are like the false prophets that the true prophets of God had to contend with in earlier centuries:
"I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran. I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied" (Jeremiah 23:21).
"Do not let your prophets and your diviners who are in your midst deceive you, nor listen to your dreams which you cause to be dreamed. For they prophesy falsely to you in My name; I have not sent them, says the Lord" (Jeremiah 29:8-9).
"They have envisioned futility and false divination, saying, 'Thus says the Lord!' But the Lord has not sent them" (Ezekiel 13:6-7).
"Her prophets plastered them with untempered mortar, seeing false visions, and divining lies for them, saying, 'Thus says the Lord God,' when the Lord had not spoken" (Ezekiel 22:28)
Just because certain denominations and churches are allowing Women to be ordained and to preach behind the pulpit does not give the "stamp of approval" for Women to preach and usurp authority over a man! The Bible clearly warns us to not be following traditions of men. The apostle Paul wrote,"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ" (Colossians 2:8).
What does Genesis say about this? "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." (Gen. 3:16)
The New Testament contains a very clear testimony that there were never any ideas of women preachers. Women were most assuredly converts and admitted into the Church. They performed a great and noble service to their husbands, their children, their friends, the Ministry, and the Church. Their obedience to God is a true model for everyone. But not a single one of them was/is ordained by God to preach. Women can and are used in Ministry all over the world. Women's skills are utilized in praise and worship, teaching Children, teaching other women, Missionary work and several other areas of serving God. Just not stepping behind a pulpit or teaching men.
You know, this isn't the first time I've been confronted with this issue. I've never quite settled it in my heart. I need to.
And it is the only issue, that comes to mind, when I have to say
"I don't quite get it, and I think it is unfair, but this is what the scripture says."
Of course, I always have to keep myself in check by reminding myself that God is just, perfect, and if I truely believed His word said to walk on my hands for the rest of my life I'd better start practicing!
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Anything I say is my opinion, just that...and only that.
"...and what does the Lord require of you, but to do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with your God?
Women in the pulpit is certainly not doctrinally sound. We can all find scripture to refute women serving in leadership positions. However many women we very instrumental to Paul"™s ministry as well as Jesus"™ ministry, not to mention the great women of the Old Testament.
Look around today and see how many women fill the pews, see how many teach Sunday school and work diligently serving in all capacities. Is it fair to say, men are lazy while women are taking the lead in the church? I think in many cases the answer is yes, men are not stepping up to the plateto become the leaders God calledthem to be.
Bob <><
Women in the pulpit is certainly not doctrinally sound. We can all find scripture to refute women serving in leadership positions. However many women we very instrumental to Paul"™s ministry as well as Jesus"™ ministry, not to mention the great women of the Old Testament.
Look around today and see how many women fill the pews, see how many teach Sunday school and work diligently serving in all capacities. Is it fair to say, men are lazy while women are taking the lead in the church? I think in many cases the answer is yes, men are not stepping up to the plateto become the leaders God calledthem to be.
Bob <><
women are only doing those things that the men SHOULD be doing, according to scripture. I won't hack on anyone teaching or preaching(altho I personally don't believe God intended women to do either) due to that fact. it's the MEN who are failing, not only the church specifically, but the country in general, by not adhereing to Doctrine... your opinions may vary.
It is not really an issue of hacking on someone or a personal attack on any individual. It is a matter of doing what is right in God's eyes. If the women didn't step up in the leadership roles, men would have to by default. I used to believe that it was not a problem for women to pasture or teach men in church. A friend of mine ask me what did God's word really say about it. I started putting togeather the research I posted at the beginning of the thread. My original intent for doing the research was to prove it was fine for a woman to pasture because traditionally in the church I attended it was acceptable.
The scripture was clear it just didn't line up with what I had always thought and what was traditionally considered acceptable. I just can't buy the aurguement that if men are not obediant to God's word then it is ok for a woman to step up and be disobediant to it......The study was eye opening for me is why I shared it here.
good post. this is a subject i find difficult to explain to others who think the Bible is somehow biased against women. it's hard for some ppl to accept the system God has set up.
i understand the Bible says a woman shouldn't be a pastor and everytime a see a woman pastor it does not sit right with me, and i really don't even listen to what they're preaching. but what i don't understand is the logic behind it and that's ok with me, it's just difficult to explain it to others.
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"Animals: fun to pet, better to chew."
-Jim Gaffigan
I know this is a controversial subject and will reply simply to put in my vote...
If a man is not available ...yes God can choose a women. A women made more influence on me being a Christain than anyone else has.
So my answer...it's not the norm, and neither should be ..but YES a women can be in the pulpet..ONLY when no man is to be found.
C7
Fro you young believers..I must say that is my opinoin only/
You know Chuch has a point here. Its a sad time when I see in alot of households where women have to be the Spiritual leader cause the man won't step up. And in these times, I see it more and more. The wife or mother has to drag the husband to church, or has to remind the husband to ask for blessing on a meal.
When I was a kid, it was completely the other way around.
Can women stand behind the pulpit and preach
