Hey everybody, I'm moving this discussion Dabow and I have been having to it's own thread. I thought you may enjoy it also.
Trae
ORIGINAL: Goose 11
So In your understanding, one must do more to get into the church than to gain salvation?
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While I believe baptism is a church ordinance and should be a requirment for church membership, I do not believe it is required for salvation. Our profession of faith is our validating and acknowledging the Lords regenerating work in us.
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Dabow, would you clear this up a little for me. Are you saying that a person must do more or less to get saved from sin?
John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
2 Thess 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
These three verses are a good example to study. In each verse we see God first working in us by chosing us to salvation. And only than do we see what is expected of us......to bring forth fruits, to give thanks, to be holy and blameless. So I would say its not what we do to be saved (for God does the saving) but what we do once we are saved. For it is once we are saved thatour work begins, not to keep saved but because we are saved and out of love for what he did for us. Thanks for the kind words Trae, but I know I have not always been cordial in my postings and I am working on it. Don
John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.[/blockquote] This is specifically said to the disciples who were there with Jesus physically. A statement that we know is true as we read of Jesus calling His disciples. This in no way teaches that a person was chosen to be saved and had no choice but to obey.
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2 Thess 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:[/blockquote] Noticethrough what God has chosen them. Through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth! Without these two things the person would not be saved. They must have come to a belief in the truth by hearing the word of God. Because God chose everyone in the world to be saved through His Son Jesus. God did not choose just a few people to get saved and leave the rest of us out to dry in the fires of hell. We are all "predestined to be conformed to the image ofHis Son" Romans 8:29.
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Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:[/blockquote] Again, it says that He chose us "IN HIM" before the creation of the world. He wanted everyone to obey and none to perish as it is said in2 Peter 3:9, but not everybody does obey. Only those whohear the truth, believe that truth, repent of their past sins, confess the Jesus as the Son of Godand arebaptized into Christ are saved by the power of God. A person must be "in Christ" in order to be saved. So the natural question becomes, "How do I get into Christ?" It is interesting that only two verses in the whole Bible include the phrase "into Christ" and both of them say we are baptized into Christ, Romans 6:3, and Galatians 3:27.
Question: Where in the examples of conversion do you ever find anyone celebrating their salvation before baptism? I would submit that no one ever celebrated until after their baptism because they were not "in Christ" until after baptism and therefore were still in need of the remission of sins, Acts 2:38.
Question: Where in the examples of conversion do you ever find anyone celebrating their salvation before baptism? I would submit that no one ever celebrated until after their baptism because they were not "in Christ" until after baptism and therefore were still in need of the remission of sins, Acts 2:38.
Dabowhunter's answer:
Quote:
In Acts 10:44-48, Cornelius and those present when Peter preached the Gospel to them believed and received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. After they believed they received the Holy Spirit they were baptized. If baptism was necessary for salvation why did the Holy Spirit indwell them as believers BEFORE they were baptized in water? The baptism of the Holy Spirit refers to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in a believer's life and receiving the new nature from God. Peter asks the question, "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?" (Acts 10:47) Peter is saying that Cornelius was saved and had received the Holy Spirit as Peter and those who believed at Pentecost in Acts 2. Peter state Cornelius was a saved man....but he was had not been baptised. If salvation is received at baptism this passage is saying that the Holy Spirit will indwell the unsaved.
Baptism clearly is commanded by God for those who have believed and been saved.Overwhelmingly the Bible stresses that a person is saved by grace through faith and that salvation is a gift of God, freely given, when one believes in Jesus Christ for their salvation. (Eph. 2:8-9) There is no question that baptism is an important first act of obedience of the one who has believed in Jesus Christ and received forgiveness of sin and eternal life. However, baptism as presented in the New Testament always follows belief and never is the basis for receiving salvation. Baptism in the Scriptures is part of one's outward public profession of belief in Jesus Christ as one's Savior and it initiated one into the local body of believers. It follows salvation and though important it is not necessary for salvation. The clear teaching of the New Testament is that it is faith and faith alone that saves. At least sixty times the New Testament states that salvation is received by faith with no mention of baptism. In Colossians 2:11-12, Paul parallels baptism with circumcision and in Romans 4:9-12, denies the grace pus works for salvation heresy by stating that Abraham was justified by God before he was circumcised. Circumcision was a practice commanded by the Lord to Israel and in believing God and outwardly acknowledging Him as a Jew by this sign showed that he believed and identified himself with Jehovah God and as an Israelite. Circumcision never made anyone a Jew and likewise baptism does not make one a child of God. Like baptism, circumcision was an act of identification.
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Eph. 2:8-9) Those that teach baptism is necessary for salvation ignore the clear and emphatic statement of Ephesians 2:8-9. Clearly, the verse unquestionably refutes any notion of receiving God's grace based on any work of man. It states, salvation is the gift of God, "NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast." One of the most simple and foundational rules of interpretation of the Bible is one must interpret in the analogy of the faith. In simple terms that means, that any correct interpretation of the Bible will not contradict another teaching of the Scriptures. This passage says that salvation is the free gift of God and not of works and it is a flagrant error to then interpret verses such as Acts 2:38 as teaching otherwise. Both interpretations cannot be true because, if they were, God would have made an error in telling us one thing in one passage and something totally contradictory in another. However, the problem is not in the wording of the New Testament or in what God says......it is found in man's bent to confuse and misinterpret what God has said because of his willing ignorance of the basics of the Word of God. Yes, man willing is ignorant because he could study and learn, but instead remains blind to simplest truth. For example look again at the issue here. Sixty passages, including the classic passage of Ephesians 2:8-9, say that salvation is received by faith and faith alone. Paul refutes the grace plus works error in almost every book he writes.
In Acts 10:44-48, Cornelius and those present when Peter preached the Gospel to them believed and received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. After they believed they received the Holy Spirit they were baptized. If baptism was necessary for salvation why did the Holy Spirit indwell them as believers BEFORE they were baptized in water? The baptism of the Holy Spirit refers to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in a believer's life and receiving the new nature from God. Peter asks the question, "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?" (Acts 10:47) Peter is saying that Cornelius was saved and had received the Holy Spirit as Peter and those who believed at Pentecost in Acts 2. Peter state Cornelius was a saved man....but he was had not been baptised. If salvation is received at baptism this passage is saying that the Holy Spirit will indwell the unsaved.
I had asked for an example of anyone actually celebrating their salvation before their baptism. This is not an example of that. This specific case was a special event whan the gospel was first shared with the Gentiles and God sent the H.S. on them to convince the Jewish Christians that He accepted them also. Nowhere else does anyone ever recieve the H.S. before baptism. And on top of that, notice how Peter explains to the other Jewish disciples what happened and why he baptized the Gentiles, Acts 11:13-18 - And he told us how he had seen an angel standing in his house, who said to him, "Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon whose surname is Peter, 14 who will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved." 15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning. 16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, "John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit." 17 If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?" 18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life." Now let's go through the whole story and get the context and the truth of what happened. I'll post in a moment....
Were Cornelius and his household saved BEFORE baptism?
There are a few KEY phrases throughout this passage!
They received the Holy Spirit, BEFORE they were baptized!
So does that mean they were saved BEFORE their baptism?
Let"s examine the text"
Acts 10:1-8 5 "Now send men to Joppa, and send for Simon whose surname is Peter. 6 He is lodging with Simon, a tanner, whose house is by the sea. He will tell you what you must do."
Acts 10:9-16 13 "And a voice came to him, "Rise, Peter; kill and eat." 14 But Peter said, "Not so, Lord! For I have never eaten anything common or unclean." 15 And a voice spoke to him again the second time, "What God has cleansed you must not call common."
Acts 10:17-23 22 "And they said, "Cornelius the centurion, a just man, one who fears God and has a good reputation among all the nation of the Jews, was divinely instructed by a holy angel to summon you to his house, and to hear words from you."
Acts 10:24-33 32 "Send therefore to Joppa and call Simon here, whose surname is Peter. He is lodging in the house of Simon, a tanner, by the sea. When he comes, he will speak to you." 33 So I sent to you immediately, and you have done well to come. Now therefore, we are all present before God, to hear all the things commanded you by God."
Acts 10:34-43 34 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: "In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. 36 The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ"
He is Lord of all.
Acts 10:44-48 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
Acts 11:13-15 13 "And he told us how he had seen an angel standing in his house, who said to him, "Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon whose surname is Peter, 14 who will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved." 15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning."
Were Cornelius and his household saved BEFORE baptism? Absolutely NOT! My Question:
If it wasfrom Peter that they would receive the message by which they would be saved, how can anyone say they were saved BEFORE that message was completely declared to them???
The Order of Events: Cornelius receives a message from God Peter comes to preach to the Gentiles (Hear) Peter is interrupted by the Holy Spirit The Gentiles speak in tongues Then Peter completes his preaching (believe) The Gentiles are ready to obey God (Repent & Confess) The Gentiles are then Saved, (baptized)
The point I am trying to make is that Cornelius and his houshold had been told that Peter would tell them what they must do. Obviously they had to do something! And the fact that the H.S. interrupted the message does not change the fact that they had to hear the message from Peter and obey it. After theyheard the rest of thesermon, they were washed clean of sin by the blood of Christ in baptism.
Those that teach baptism is necessary for salvation ignore the clear and emphatic statement of Ephesians 2:8-9. Clearly, the verse unquestionably refutes any notion of receiving God's grace based on any work of man. It states, salvation is the gift of God, "NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast." One of the most simple and foundational rules of interpretation of the Bible is one must interpret in the analogy of the faith. In simple terms that means, that any correct interpretation of the Bible will not contradict another teaching of the Scriptures. This passage says that salvation is the free gift of God and not of works and it is a flagrant error to then interpret verses such as Acts 2:38 as teaching otherwise. Both interpretations cannot be true because, if they were, God would have made an error in telling us one thing in one passage and something totally contradictory in another.
O.K. then if your understanding is correct thenwhy does the ONLY place in Scriptures that actually has the phrase "faith only" says "NOT BY FAITH ONLY"?? James 2:24 -
"You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only."
However, baptism as presented in the New Testament always follows belief and never is the basis for receiving salvation.
I agree that baptism always follows belief, but the fact remains that the individual who is being savednever rejoices, celebrates, or shows any other emotion before baptism. Their understanding of their own salvation forces them all to wait until the obedience to the gospel is complete in baptism. Let's examine a few of the conversions in the Bible.
1. The 3000 in Acts 2:38-42 - Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call." 40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation." 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them. 42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles" doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers.
If these were saved before baptism why didn'tGod say theywere added to them before baptism?
2. The Eunch in Acts 8:35-39 - Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. 36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, "See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?" 37 Then Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." 38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him. 39 Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing.
Again, the Eunch rejoiced AFTER baptism. Another interestingpoint about this conversion is thfact that the preaching ofJesus included baptism, because the Eunch responds to the preaching of Jesus by asking to be baptized.
3. The Jailer in Acts 16:27-34 -And the keeper of the prison, awaking from sleep and seeing the prison doors open, supposing the prisoners had fled, drew his sword and was about to kill himself. 28 But Paul called with a loud voice, saying, "Do yourself no harm, for we are all here." 29 Then he called for a light, ran in, and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas. 30 And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household." 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized. 34 Now when he had brought them into his house, he set food before them; and he rejoiced, having believed in God with all his household.
Here the Jailer rejoices with his household after baptism, and noticetheScriptures say they rejoiced because they had believed. Just as in the case with the Eunch, beliving and obedience are united by God, It was the same thing. Without faith their baptism would have meant nothing, and without baptism (obedience) their faith would have meant nothing.
4. Lydia in Acts 16:13-15 - And on the Sabbath day we went out of the city to the riverside, where prayer was customarily made; and we sat down and spoke to the women who met there. 14 Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul. 15 And when she and her household were baptized, she begged us, saying, "If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay." So she persuaded us.
Why wasn't she faithful to the Lord before baptism, at the moment she believed? Because she understood that baptism was included in her obedience to the gospel. And her salvation was not complete until she was baptized.
Now can you site any conversions that point so vividly to salvation before baptism? I think not.
"Now can you site any conversions that point so vividly to salvation before baptism? I think not."
In Acts 10:44-48, Cornelius and those present when Peter preached the Gospel to them believed and received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. After they believed they received the Holy Spirit they were baptized. If baptism was necessary for salvation why did the Holy Spirit indwell them as believers BEFORE they were baptized in water? The baptism of the Holy Spirit refers to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in a believer's life and receiving the new nature from God. Peter asks the question, "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?" (Acts 10:47) Peter is saying that Cornelius was saved and had received the Holy Spirit as Peter and those who believed at Pentecost in Acts 2. Peter state Cornelius was a saved man....but he was had not been baptised. If salvation is received at baptism this passage is saying that the Holy Spirit will indwell the unsaved.
I would say it is a stretch to say the scripture aboutLydiagives any indication that she was saved becauseshe was baptized. Similary with the Jailer,of course they are rejoicing because they are saved.Is that reason enought to say because they rejoice we will make baptism necessary for salvation?
Salvation and Baptism
