Baptism Questions

[Chuck7]

1.IF...the Holy Spirit did not come to the believers till after Christ ressurected, why did John The Baptist and Christ's disciples baptize folk.?

2. If it was to show repentance of sins..while would the lamb without sin need to be baptized??

[cataway]

ORIGINAL: Chuck7

1.IF...the Holy Spirit did not come to the believers till after Christ ressurected, why did John The Baptist and Christ's disciples baptize folk.?

2. If it was to show repentance of sins..while would the lamb without sin need to be baptized??
[align=left]

[/align][align=left][/align][align=left]John"™s Baptism. The first human authorized by God to perform water baptism was John the son of Zechariah and Elizabeth. (Lu 1:5-7,57) The very fact that he was known as "John the Baptist" or "the baptizer" (Mt 3:1; Mr 1:4) implies that baptism or water immersion came to the attention of the people especially through John, and the Scriptures prove that his ministry and baptism came from God; they were not of John"™s origin. His works were foretold by the angel Gabriel as from God (Lu 1:13-17), and Zechariah prophesied by holy spirit that John would be a prophet of the Most High to make Jehovah"™s ways ready. (Lu 1:68-79) Jesus confirmed that John"™s ministry and baptism were from God. (Lu 7:26-28) The disciple Luke records that "God"™s declaration came to John the son of Zechariah in the wilderness. So he came ... preaching baptism." (Lu 3:2,3) The apostle John states of him: "There arose a man that was sent forth as a representative of God: his name was John.""”Joh 1:6.[/align][align=left]Further understanding of the meaning of John"™s baptism is gained by comparing various translations of Luke 3:3. John came "preaching baptism in symbol of repentance for forgiveness of sins" (NW); "baptism conditioned on repentance" (CB); "baptism whereby men repented, to have their sins forgiven" (Kx); "baptism in token of repentance for the forgiveness of sins" (NE); "Turn away from your sins and be baptized, and God will forgive your sins" (TEV). These renderings make plain that the baptism did not wash away their sins, but the repentance and changing of their ways did, and of this, baptism was a symbol.[/align][align=left]The baptism performed by John was therefore not a special cleansing from God through his servant John, but a public demonstration and symbol of the individual"™s repentance over his sins against the Law, which was to lead them to Christ. (Ga 3:24) John thereby prepared a people to "see the saving means of God." (Lu 3:6) His work served to "get ready for Jehovah a prepared people." (Lu 1:16,17) Such a work had been prophesied by Isaiah and Malachi."”Isa 40:3-5; Mal 4:5,6.[/align][align=left]Some scholars try to read anticipation of John"™s baptism and the Christian baptism in ancient purification ceremonies under the Law (Ex 29:4; Le 8:6; 14:8, 31,32; Heb 9:10, ftn) or in individual acts. (Ge 35:2; Ex 19:10) But these instances bear no analogy to the real meaning of baptism. They were washings for ceremonial cleanness. In only one instance is there anything approaching a dipping of the body completely under water. This is in the case of Naaman the leper, and the plunging into water was done seven times. (2Ki 5:14) It did not bring him into any special relationship with God, but it merely cured him of leprosy. Besides, Scripturally, proselytes were circumcised, not baptized. To partake of the Passover or engage in worship at the sanctuary one had to be circumcised."”Ex 12:43-49.[/align][align=left]Neither are there any grounds for the assertion made by some that John"™s baptism was probably borrowed from the Jewish sect the Essenes or from the Pharisees. Both of these sects had many requirements for ablutions to be performed often. But Jesus showed such to be mere commandments of men who overstepped the commandments of God by their tradition. (Mr 7:1-9; Lu 11:38-42) John baptized in water because, as he said, he was sent by God to baptize in water. (Joh 1:33) He was not sent by the Essenes or by the Pharisees. His commission was not to make Jewish proselytes but to baptize those who were already members of the Jewish congregation."”Lu 1:16.[/align][align=left]John knew that his works were merely a preparing of the way before God"™s Son and Messiah and would give way to the greater ministry of that One. The reason for John"™s baptizing was that the Messiah might be made manifest to Israel. (Joh 1:31) According to John 3:26-30, the Messiah"™s ministry would increase, but John"™s ministry was to decrease. Those who were baptized by Jesus"™ disciples during Jesus"™ earthly ministry and who therefore also became Jesus"™ disciples were baptized in symbol of repentance in the manner of John"™s baptism."”Joh 3:25,26; 4:1,2.[/align][align=left]Jesus"™ Baptism in Water. The baptism of Jesus himself as performed by John must of necessity have had a meaning and purpose quite different from John"™s baptism, as Jesus "committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth." (1Pe 2:22) So he could not submit to an act symbolizing repentance. Undoubtedly it was for this reason that John objected to baptizing Jesus. But Jesus said: "Let it be, this time, for in that way it is suitable for us to carry out all that is righteous.""”Mt 3:13-15.[/align][align=left]Luke states that Jesus was praying at the time of his baptism. (Lu 3:21) Further, the writer of the letter to the Hebrews says that when Jesus Christ came "into the world" (that is, not when he was born and could not read and say these words, but when he presented himself for baptism and began his ministry) he was saying, in accord with Psalm 40:6-8 (LXX): "Sacrifice and offering you did not want, but you prepared a body for me.... Look! I am come (in the roll of the book it is written about me) to do your will, O God." (Heb 10:5-9) Jesus was by birth a member of the Jewish nation, which nation was in a national covenant with God, namely, the Law covenant. (Ex 19:5-8; Ga 4:4) Jesus, by reason of this fact, was therefore already in a covenant relationship with Jehovah God when he thus presented himself to John for baptism. Jesus was there doing something more than what was required of him under the Law. He was presenting himself to his Father Jehovah to do his Father"™s "will" with reference to the offering of his own "prepared" body and with regard to doing away with animal sacrifices that were offered according to the Law. The apostle Paul comments: "By the said "˜will"™ we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time." (Heb 10:10) The Father"™s will for Jesus also involved activity in connection with the Kingdom, and for this service too Jesus presented himself. (Lu 4:43; 17:20,21) Jehovah accepted and acknowledged this presentation of his Son, anointing him with holy spirit and saying: "You are my Son, the beloved; I have approved you.""”Mr 1:9-11; Lu 3:21-23; Mt 3:13-17.[/align][align=left]Water Baptism of Jesus"™ Followers. John"™s baptism was due to be replaced by the baptism commanded by Jesus: "Make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit." (Mt 28:19) This was the only water baptism having God"™s approval from Pentecost, 33C.E., forward. Some years after 33C.E., Apollos, a zealous man, was teaching correctly about Jesus, but he had an understanding of only John"™s baptism. On this matter he had to be corrected, as did the disciples whom Paul met at Ephesus. These men in Ephesus had undergone John"™s baptism, but evidently after its valid performance had ended, since Paul"™s visit to Ephesus was about 20 years after the termination of the Law covenant. They were then baptized correctly in the name of Jesus and received holy spirit."”Ac 18:24-26; 19:1-7.[/align]That Christian baptism required an understanding of God"™s Word and an intelligent decision to present oneself to do the revealed will of God was evident when, at Pentecost, 33C.E., the Jews and proselytes there assembled, who already had a knowledge of the Hebrew Scriptures, heard Peter speak about Jesus the Messiah, with the result that 3,000 "embraced his word heartily" and "were baptized." (Ac 2:41; 3:19"“4:4; 10:34-38) Those in Samaria first believed Philip"™s preaching of the good news, and then they were baptized. (Ac 8:12) The Ethiopian eunuch, a devout Jewish proselyte who, as such, also had knowledge of Jehovah and the Hebrew Scriptures, heard first the explanation of the fulfillment of these scriptures in Christ, accepted it, and then wanted to be baptized. (Ac 8:34-36) Peter explained to Cornelius that "the man that fears [God] and works righteousness is acceptable" (Ac 10:35) and that everyone putting faith in Jesus Christ gets forgiveness of sins through his name. (Ac 10:43; 11:18) All of this is in harmony with Jesus"™ command to "make disciples ... teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you." Those who accept the teaching and who become disciples properly get baptized."”Mt 28:19,20; Ac 1:8.

theres more but i know some of you cant read that far.

[LBR]

1. to prepare the way for Christ--covered in Matthew, Mark, and Luke.

2. baptism is never referanced to be because of remission of sins--it is for remission of sins. Christ set the perfect example for us when He was baptized. Christ didn't have to do a lot of things--He didn't have to plait a whip to run the theives and money changers out of the temple--He could have tossed them out without raising a finger if He chose. He didn't have to make clay to heal the blind man. He didn't have to use reason or logic when he saved the adultress from being stoned.

I don't claim to know the reasoning behind allthis--evidently it's something we are required to know, or it would be explained to us. We are commanded to be baptized though, plainly and consistently.

Chad

[Leafrivermac]

Johns baptism was pre-christian as the NT church was not founded yet. We can see in fact that John the Baptists diciples were re-baptized after the day of Pentecost.
Of course Jesus was Himself baptized by John, . . .but being without sin He wasn't baptized to show repentance but to manifest Himself to Israel as the Messiah. the Baptizer with the Spirit, and the Son of God. He submitted to baptism to fulfill all righteousness.
Early on in Christ's ministryt the diciples baptized converts in Christ's authority. . . .but the Bible does not explain the purpose of this. Could be a continuation of John's baptism. . . .I would say this is the case since baptism is now identified with Christ's burial. At any rate I would'nt agree that John's or the diciples baptism were for the complete remission of sin but were preparatory to christian baptism.

[dabowhunter]

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost" (Acts 2:38).

Baptism is a figure or type of Christs death burial and resurrection. A type or figure is never as equal to or greter than the real thing. How can baptism give us forgiveness of sins? It can't it is afigure. The true interpretation of Acts 2:38 is not clouded in a great mystery that cannot be understood. Anyone with the most basic skills in Bible study can research and find the correct meaning of the verse. Acts 2:38 says, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." The preposition "for" is the Greek work "eis" and simply means "with a view towards," "in connection with," "because of," or "in light of." In other words, Peter said that because they had believed and repented these people should now be baptized.

[Chuck7]

Thanks all for the replies.I don't like singling out some over others because Paul said that was being carnal.

Here is my take on it...and certainly an opinion.
Certainly baptism is very important or Jesus wouldn't have gotten baptized and would not have allowed his disciples to waste time baptizing if it wsn't necessary. Surely it didn't wash sins away as Christ called Peter Satan once , and Jesus said "I've chosen 12 of you and one of you has a devil."

To look at the picture of people coming they were preparing their hearts for Christ to come. They were making the crooked straight.They were confessing their sins and publically being baptized. If a Muslimis baptized in Iraqhis family treats him as a dead man. Romans 6 says "We who have been baptizedis to considerhimself dead.

Christ was baptized to fulfill scripture and He was our utimant example showing us the way and what to do.

As we see in Acts...some recieved the Holy Ghost before water baptism and some recieved it days after. I reccond a man could recieve the Holy Ghost during a baptism but it surely looks like a separate event.
Chad here are the scriptures that I'm talking about.


12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

[LBR]

[quote]How can baptism give us forgiveness of sins? It can't it is afigure. /quote]

In and of itself, it doesn't--but it is an intregal part. Just like confession, in and of itself, won't save anyone, but the Bible says in Romans 10:10 confession is made unto salvation. I don't base my belief on that one verse alone, but I believe that verse and know confession is a requirement.

The preposition "for" is the Greek work "eis" and simply means "with a view towards," "in connection with," "because of," or "in light of." In other words, Peter said that because they had believed and repented these people should now be baptized.

Once again, your own "logic" fills your argument full of holes. Repentance and baptism both come before salvation. They are inseperable in this verse. Using your "logic", salvation would have to come before repentance.

According to your "interpretation", the verse says "Repent and be baptized because your sins have been remitted". You can't argue that point, so you not only have to change the meaning of "for", but also switch the verse around so repentance comes before salvation, but baptism comes after. Is this not obvious to you???????

If we were at liberty to do that, then anyone could "make" the Bible say anything they wanted to fit anything they wanted to believe. Unfortunatley it seems many people feel that they do have that authority.

The Bible is plain on the subject. Repent and be baptized for the remission of sins. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ were baptized into His death.

I've asked before, but got no answer, so I'll ask again. Is there any other word or topic in the Bible that has to be changed, ignored, or otherwise manipulated like baptism is? Why is this one simple command so difficult to accept?

Chad

[Chuck7]

First of all Chad I'd like to ask your forgiveness for all the self righteous arrogant remarks I've made toward you in the past. I'm sure if I met you face to face I'd love you very much.

You know you and I have many controversial beliefs but one positive thing I've learned from you which I'm reminded of often ..is use the scripture. IN that you are very much correct and I will do my best to answer the following remarks with scripture. Again, I'm sorry and would like to forget the past and start anew.
Your friend,
C7

Once again, your own "logic" fills your argument full of holes. Repentance and baptism both come before salvation. They are inseperable in this verse. Using your "logic", salvation would have to come before repentance. Chad..let's look closely again at the verse.

12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. AMEN CHAD they believed ...whosoever belieth shall be saved. Romans 1O and John 3 :16 Now remember Chad..I'm not your typical Pentecostal..I'm just a Christian who believes God is the same yesterday , today and forever. Try and be a little open toward me as I am toward you.OK THEY were saved. and were baaptized. Which came first ,,no matter to me. All we need ot know is they responded ot the preached word and they were obedient unto baptism.
13Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: WOW this verse implies that they didn't have th eHoly Spirit or why would Peter lay hands on them.
16(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.



According to your "interpretation", the verse says "Repent and be baptized because your sins have been remitted". You can't argue that point, so you not only have to change the meaning of "for", but also switch the verse around so repentance comes before salvation, but baptism comes after. Is this not obvious to you??????? To be honest Chad I don't understand what you are saying here. I want to so let's hit on this in a separate reply.


The Bible is plain on the subject. Repent and be baptized for the remission of sins.Let's look up that word remission in the Greek and Dictionary and also here some others on this concept.The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ were baptized into His death.

I've asked before, but got no answer, so I'll ask again. Is there any other word or topic in the Bible that has to be changed, ignored, or otherwise manipulated like baptism is? Why is this one simple command so difficult to accept? Chad...you and I agree 100% on this. I beleive a person must be baptized. The part we don't agree is what baptism does.
There are tons of scriptures to back up the need ot be baptized. We see eye to eye here.

Chad

[Chuck7]

Remission

Greek Word aphesis af..es.. is freedom , pardon, deliverance, liberty

College Dictionary..forgiveness of sins

This is good Chad... Folks who are baptized are pardoned.

The 2nd work of God is the recieving of the Holy Ghost as it appears this baptism does clean us up .But there is more .We need the help of th eHoly Spirit or.." The devil comes back to the clean temple and brings back 7 other demons worse than the first." This is scripture. Therefore one must be filled with the holy Spirit..so it appears to me that water baptism is not a finished work.
The finished work is th esanctifying work of the Holy Ghost through obedience.

1 Peter 22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren,

[LBR]

Hey Chuck--a far as I'm concerned it was forgotten a long time ago. I do appreciate the guesture though.

Sorry I wasn't clear--my reply was to dabow's statements. I'll touch on yours now.

AMEN CHAD they believed ...whosoever belieth shall be saved. Romans 1O and John 3 :16

Actually John 3:16 says "should not perish", not "shall not perish". Romans 10:10 says with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Now which is true? Both are, but neither one contains 100% of the truth. Belief does not equal salvation. James makes that clear--the devils believe, and tremble.

I'll back up for a moment and tell a little story--you have probably heard it before.Four blind men were asked to describe an elephant. Each was given the opportunity to touch the elephant so they could give a description. The first one touched the elephant's nose, and and said "the elephant is like a snake". The second touched the elephant's leg and said "the elephant is like a tree". The third touched the elephant's side and said "the elephant is like a wall". The fourth grabbed the elephant's tail and said "the elephant is like a rope". Now, which one was right, and which one was wrong? The answer is simple--they were all wrong--they had only touched on a particular part, not the whole. The statements concerning the particular parts they had touched were correct, but wrong as a whole.

That is the mistake many people make with the Bible. Only touching on certain verses or certain parts will never give you the full picture. You can argue that an elephant is like a snake all day long, but that won't change the elephant. It's our responsibility to read all of it, not just touch on part of it. When you put it all together, it all makes sense.

Now, back to the topic.

Which came first ,,no matter to me. All we need ot know is they responded ot the preached word and they were obedient unto baptism.

I haveto disagree Chuck--Godgave us the order to follow. Naaman wasn't first cleansed, then dipped. The walls of Jericho didn't fall, then the Israelites marched and shouted and blew trumpets. Noah and his familyweren't saved from the flood, then built the arc. We know that order is important, and we don't have the authority to set the order. Believe, be baptized, be saved. Repent, be baptized, be saved. That's the order the Bible gives.The reason is important also.Baptism isfor remission of sinsaccording toActs 2:38--that doesn't give us the authority to decide that it should come after the remission of sins. Baptism is to wash away sins, according toaccording to Acts 22:16. If we believe the Bible, we have to believe the order it gives.Believing what it says, just as it's said, is very important to me.

To be honest Chad I don't understand what you are saying here. I want to so let's hit on this in a separate reply.

Sorry--that was my response to dabow's "revised" interpretation of Acts 2:38.

Chad...you and I agree 100% on this. I beleive a person must be baptized. The part we don't agree is what baptism does.
There are tons of scriptures to back up the need ot be baptized. We see eye to eye here.

The Bible is clear on what baptism does, and what it sybolizes. We are baptized into Christ, into His death, for remission of sins, to wash away sins, to save us. Not my words, but the Bible's. That is why that one simple little act gets shredded to bits so often--to"make" it fit certain beliefs, it can't mean just what it says. I don't know of any other word or act in theBible that causes so much contention, and I have no idea why it's not accepted just as it is.

Therefore one must be filled with the holy Spirit..so it appears to me that water baptism is not a finished work.
The finished work is th esanctifying work of the Holy Ghost through obedience.

I think we are basically on the same page here. Baptism, in and of itself, is a finished work in the sense that once you are scripturally baptized, you don't have to keep repeating it every time you stumble. However, baptism in and of itself will not save anyone, nor does it seal the deal--according to Revelation 2:10 to get a crown of life, we have to be obedient to the end.

Again, my apologies for the confusion. I should have made it more clear what I was referring to.

Chad