"What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." (Romans 4:1-5)
The Bible teaches that no one, Old or New Testament, who was saved merited or earned it in any way. The thief died in the Old Testament dispensation during the time the Mosiac Law was enforce. He expressed saving faith while hanging on a cross and had no time to keep any law therefore keeping of any part of the law was certainly not a part of his salvation. Jesus declared that the thief would be with Him that day in heaven because the thief believed in Jesus Christ and nothing more. Romans 3:20 emphatically states, "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin." Galatians 3:11-12 says, "But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them." Galatians 3:21-24 proclaims, "Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith." Clearly, works, typified by the Old Testament law did not save anyone. The only part the law had in salvation was point out the Jew's sin which would bring conviction. The law taught the Old Testament people that they were sinners who needed a Savior, the Messiah. If they believed and put their faith in the coming Messiah they were saved, not by their keeping the Law, but by their faith.
Other passages state the same truth that Abraham received salvation by believing in the promises of God, and not by his works. (See Gal. 3:6, 9; Heb. 11:8, 17; James 2:23) God did not change the requirement for salvation after the cross. It was by faith before and after the cross
Pretty simple as I see it--both are through obedience. Anyone who will ever be saved is saved by grace--unmerited favor. There's no way anyone can earn it, the only way to recieve it is by obeying God and having it given to you.
Chad
__________________
"We can have no '50-50' allegiance in this country. Either a man is an American and nothing else, or he is not an American at all."-- Theodore Roosevelt
A wise man's heart is at his right hand; but a fool's heart at his left. Ecclesiasties 10:2
The last four letters in American..........I Can
The last four letters in Republican........I Can
The last four letters in Democrats.........Rats
"What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." (Romans 4:1-5)
The Bible teaches that no one, Old or New Testament, who was saved merited or earned it in any way. The thief died in the Old Testament dispensation during the time the Mosiac Law was enforce. He expressed saving faith while hanging on a cross and had no time to keep any law therefore keeping of any part of the law was certainly not a part of his salvation. Jesus declared that the thief would be with Him that day in heaven because the thief believed in Jesus Christ and nothing more. Romans 3:20 emphatically states, "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin." Galatians 3:11-12 says, "But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them." Galatians 3:21-24 proclaims, "Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith." Clearly, works, typified by the Old Testament law did not save anyone. The only part the law had in salvation was point out the Jew's sin which would bring conviction. The law taught the Old Testament people that they were sinners who needed a Savior, the Messiah. If they believed and put their faith in the coming Messiah they were saved, not by their keeping the Law, but by their faith.
Other passages state the same truth that Abraham received salvation by believing in the promises of God, and not by his works. (See Gal. 3:6, 9; Heb. 11:8, 17; James 2:23) God did not change the requirement for salvation after the cross. It was by faith before and after the cross
Exactly right! Faith looking to the time of the Messiah, seeing and recognizing the Messiah when He was here, and now we look back at His coming.
Living faith or dead faith? What are the examples we are given even in the Old Testament? Were those who did nothing, or disobeyed, rewarded? Were those who obeyed God's commands punished?
I Peter 3 sums it up well. Referring to Noah, he said 8 souls were saved by water. We know that is technically true--water made the arc float--but we also know it was Noah's obedience that made it all work. We know that Naaman wasn't actually cleansed by dipping, but if he hadn't performed that act of obedience he wouldn't have been cleansed. We know that the mighty walls of Jericho didn't fall due to marching, shouting, and trumpets blowing--but if the Israelites hadn't been obedient, the walls would not have fallen.
I have to agree--it's still the same premise under grace as it was under the law. Obedience is a requirement.
Chad
__________________
"We can have no '50-50' allegiance in this country. Either a man is an American and nothing else, or he is not an American at all."-- Theodore Roosevelt
A wise man's heart is at his right hand; but a fool's heart at his left. Ecclesiasties 10:2
The last four letters in American..........I Can
The last four letters in Republican........I Can
The last four letters in Democrats.........Rats
If they believed and put their faith in the coming Messiah they were saved, not by their keeping the Law, but by their faith.
Quote:
Pretty simple as I see it--both are through obedience. Anyone who will ever be saved is saved by grace--unmerited favor. There's no way anyone can earn it, the only way to recieve it is by obeying God and having it given to you.
I agree and disagree. IMHO, if we combineyour answer withLBR's we find the truth.Paul says that faith is the means of accessing the grace of God (Romans 5:2). He then describes that faith as the "œobedience of faith" (Romans 16:26), the "œwork of faith" (1 Thessalonians 1:3), and "œfaith working through love" (Galatians 5:6). We cannot read of ANY hero of faith from Hebrews 11 that did nothing "by faith". They all did something "by faith".
You said it was not by keeping the law, but wasn't it truly by keeping the law that they showed their love to God? And today, our obedience shows God our love. Consider, "œIf you love Me, keep My commandments." John 14:15. And 1 John 5:3, "For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome."
There is aunity characteristic of grace, law, love and obedience. Grace and law are not enemies, they complement each other. The absence of law in the life of a free-morel agent, keeps grace from being realized.
The continual presence of the forbidden tree allowed Adam and Eve a means of displaying their fidelity to God. Mankind must respond to God"™s grace, in the obedience of faith, as a manifestation of their love, to allow the continuity of the blessings of grace.
The physical law of the Israelites touched every aspect of their lives. By keeping that law they showed their respect, faith, and love to God through obedience.
And under the New Law, we continue to do the same thing. Our obedience is still paramount in the expression of our faith. Withoutobedience to the word of God, there is no Grace to be found.
If there is grace outside of obedient faith, there will be no lost people on the last day.
If there is grace outside of obedient faith, there will be no lost people on the last day.
Exactly!
Under the Law, the blood of bulls and goats did not wash away sins, but that blood did move those sins forward until Christ came and made the perfect sacrifice. If the sacrifices hadn't been made, and the sins not moved forward, would the Israelites still be saved?
It goes back to the same point that cannot be logically, scripturally, or even honestly addressed by so many. We either do something, or we do absolutely nothing. Which is it?
We don't have the authority to say "well, we have to do this, but it isn't a work, but doing that is most definately a work" when it's concerning the commands God gave us.
Chad
__________________
"We can have no '50-50' allegiance in this country. Either a man is an American and nothing else, or he is not an American at all."-- Theodore Roosevelt
A wise man's heart is at his right hand; but a fool's heart at his left. Ecclesiasties 10:2
The last four letters in American..........I Can
The last four letters in Republican........I Can
The last four letters in Democrats.........Rats
It boils down to what I have said before, the presumption That Jews were saved by the works of the law, It is not so, it is only a gentile thought.
We only find Paul delivering such statement, but in Judaism we are taught that we are saved by faith In God as Abraham was by his Grace.
It is only Paul who points out to gentiles who were ignorant of Judaism that, no one can't be saved by the works of the LAw.
The Law Was given to Israel as a means of santification (To separate for God from other nations) Not as a means of salvation.The gentile who never had the commandments need to be sanctified through Christ, who himself is the living Torah(Word of God).
So in the past the patriarchs and Abraham were saved by Grace ,simply because God Loved them.
Shalom
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"Blessed is He who Comes in The Name of The Lord"
Alex, I've never been taught that the Israelites were saved by the Law--but as I understand it, they would not have been saved without obedience to the Law. They were saved by grace, just as we all are now, but God gave them andus requirements to get into grace. Otherwise, everyone is saved regardless of what they do.
That's my point with "we either do something, or we do absolutely nothing".
We can't do both. Some will argue that baptism is trying to earn, work for, add to, etc. grace. However, these same people will contend that there are other requirements that must be met. While arguing against baptism, it's "we can do nothing". Then, when it comes to hearing, believing, repenting, and confessing it flip-flops to "we must do something". It's a consistently inconsistent stance--we cannot do something, and at the same time do nothing. Then the discussion digresses to "well, I don't consider this or that a work, but baptism is a work". Where does that come from? Man. Not one scripture can be offered to defend that stance, and there's been many to refute it, but in this case it seems that so many will cling to the words of man instead of the words of the Bible. I don't understand it.
Chad
__________________
"We can have no '50-50' allegiance in this country. Either a man is an American and nothing else, or he is not an American at all."-- Theodore Roosevelt
A wise man's heart is at his right hand; but a fool's heart at his left. Ecclesiasties 10:2
The last four letters in American..........I Can
The last four letters in Republican........I Can
The last four letters in Democrats.........Rats
Two questions for believers...
