What does the average Christian really believe? Of course, most Christian denominations officially accept trinitarianism. However, most trinitarian scholars carefully distance themselves from tritheism and many use terminology that sounds almost like Oneness.
Speaking solely from my own experiance as being raised trinitarian and attending trinitarian churches most of my adult life, many church members do not really understand the doctrine of trinitarianism and, as a practical matter, are closer to Oneness belief. Some questions which if answered in the affirmative indicate a leaning towards Oneness or a functional acceptance of it are:
(1)Do you usually pray directly to Jesus? When you pray to the Father, do you switch over into language indicating that actually you are thinking about Jesus (for example, using "Lord," "in your name," or "Jesus")?
(2)Do you expect to see only one God in heaven, namely Jesus Christ?
(3)Is it correct to say that you seldom or never pray directly to the Holy Spirit as a separate person?
(4)Is the doctrine of the trinity confusing to you or a mystery to you?
Based on answers to these questions and others like them, I see the majority of Bible believers instinctively think in Oneness terms and not in trinitarian terms. It seems that when a person receives the baptism of the Holy Spirit he instinctively thinks in terms of Oneness belief.
Most Catholics and Protestants do not have a well developed concept of the trinity, do not know in detail what trinitarianism teaches, and cannot explain Bible passages in trinitarian terms. Today, we find a strong emphasis on trinitarianism and extremely tritheistic forms of trinitarianism primarily in some trinitarian Pentecostal churches. The apparent reason for this is that they have faced the Oneness issue, have consciously rejected Oneness, and so have gone into radical trinitarianism.
A simple question will help the trinitarian church member clarify his own beliefs. The question is: "When we see God in heaven, what will we see?" If he answers that we will see three persons with three bodies, then he is a strong, radical trinitarian. His answer indicates a tritheism, not the strong monotheism of the Bible. If he answers that we will see one God with one body, then he is close to Oneness. Given this answer, it is easy to demonstrate from Revelation that the One we will see is actually Jesus Christ, for in Him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
__________________ And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
1. I pray to "Father,Son and Holy Spirit".
2.If I can "see" anything in Heaven I hope to "see" Them all.
3.The Spirit I believe gives me wisdom and understanding and I give thanks for that and ask for more.
4.There are many "doctrines" that are confusing and a mystery. There is always a "base" for faith, but some things I believe are glued together by my faith.
If we must find hard evidence for our beliefs (even when we look to scripture for it) we will find some doubt and confusion. There is evil which cannot overcome faith but has a great chance to cloud "facts" and "logic" and even to "twist" scripture.
(1)Do you usually pray directly to Jesus? When you pray to the Father, do you switch over into language indicating that actually you are thinking about Jesus (for example, using "Lord," "in your name," or "Jesus")?
I pray to the Father, through the Spirit and in Jesus' name . . . just like the Oneness folks do.
(2)Do you expect to see only one God in heaven, namely Jesus Christ?
I don't think any trinitarian claims that there are 3 Gods -- that's a false claim that Oneness believersmake about us. We have stated many times that there is only ONE God, but that He is manifested in 3 persons.
(3)Is it correct to say that you seldom or never pray directly to the Holy Spirit as a separate person?
Seldom probably, but not never. I was taught that you can pray to any person of the trinity . . . and I've done so on a number of ocassions.
(4)Is the doctrine of the trinity confusing to you or a mystery to you?
Not at all. In fact, since these threads started, I've only become MORE solid in my beliefs. Now, it seems every time I open the Word, I see numerous verses which confirm my beliefs.
Now a question for you.
Is Jesus God? Is the Father God? Is the Holy Spirit God?
Doesn't that total 3?
ONE GOD, but manifested in three persons. I can't explain it, but I can't explain miracles either. God can do the impossible andI know Hethat He can be 3 and yet one.
__________________
Today' s small bucks are tomorrow' s trophies.
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(1)Do you usually pray directly to Jesus? When you pray to the Father, do you switch over into language indicating that actually you are thinking about Jesus (for example, using "Lord," "in your name," or "Jesus")?
I pray to the Father, through the Spirit and in Jesus' name . . . just like the Oneness folks do.
(2)Do you expect to see only one God in heaven, namely Jesus Christ?
I don't think any trinitarian claims that there are 3 Gods -- that's a false claim that Oneness believersmake about us. We have stated many times that there is only ONE God, but that He is manifested in 3 persons.
(3)Is it correct to say that you seldom or never pray directly to the Holy Spirit as a separate person?
Seldom probably, but not never. I was taught that you can pray to any person of the trinity . . . and I've done so on a number of ocassions.
(4)Is the doctrine of the trinity confusing to you or a mystery to you?
Not at all. In fact, since these threads started, I've only become MORE solid in my beliefs. Now, it seems every time I open the Word, I see numerous verses which confirm my beliefs.
Now a question for you.
Is Jesus God? Is the Father God? Is the Holy Spirit God?
Doesn't that total 3?
ONE GOD, but manifested in three persons. I can't explain it, but I can't explain miracles either. God can do the impossible andI know Hethat He can be 3 and yet one.
Yes there is ONE God but is he is manifested in Three Forms as you have stated. That is why when I pray I pray to God, because he is Jesus, The Father, and the Holy Ghost.
If there is a trinity of persons with separate bodies, each of whom can interact with us individually, then they are not one God in any meaningful sense.
__________________ And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Here is an experience that happened to me that I think was a "revelatio" and gave me a new "understanding" of the Trinity.
I am a hunter. When ever hunting I am looking for new opportunities and places I could build a tree stand. One day I found a good area and began to look around for a couple or three trees close enough together yet far enough apart to house a tree stand build of wood. I see three such trees, that look like they will do niceley. As I approach them I see they are three birch trees all just ablut identical looking in hight and shape. they seem close together at the base yet move apart so that at 12 or 14 feet they are an equal distance apart of about 4 feet. Then as I get right up to them I look through the couple of small spruce that are around their base. They are ONE tree. ONE birch root and about 4 to 6 inches of trunk and then it splits into three equal trees that grow up and out as if individuals.
Only if it takes three to equal what man posesses as one. Are you a dad, a son, and a soul? Are you three? Are you in the image of God?
I've used that same example myself. However, I cannot be three seperate persons at the same time. Of course, I'm not God.
Quote:
[blockquote]quote:
Is the doctrine of the trinity confusing to you or a mystery to you? [/blockquote]
[blockquote]quote:
I can't explain it, but I can't explain miracles either. God can do the impossible andI know Hethat He can be 3 and yet one.[/blockquote]
You askedabout the doctrine of the trinity. The doctrine isn't confusing to me. How an incredible God, like the one we serve, does it is beyond my comprehension. Like I said, I can't explain how He performs miracles either, but I am not confused about what they are.
__________________
Today' s small bucks are tomorrow' s trophies.
[image]http://www.whitetails.com/deer8.html[image]
Average Joe
However, I cannot be three seperate persons at the same time. Of course, I'm not God.
