I could possibly be convinced if you guys could answer some of the many questions I have.
1. Did Jesus Christ have two fathers? The Father is the Father of the Son (IJohn 1:3), yet the child born of Mary was conceived by the Holy Ghost (Matthew 1:18, 20; Luke 1:35). Which one is the true father? Some trinitarians say that the Holy Ghost was merely the Father's agent in conception- a process they compare to artificial insemination!
2. How many Spirits are there? God the Father is a Spirit (John 4:24), the Lord Jesus is a Spirit (IICorinthians 3:17), and the Holy Spirit is a Spirit by definition. Yet there is one Spirit (ICorinthians 12:13; Ephesians 4:4).
3. If Father and Son are co-equal persons, why did Jesus pray to the Father? (Matthew 11:25). Can God pray to God?
4. Similarly, how can the Son not know as much as the Father? (Matthew 24:36; Mark 13:32).
5. Similarly, how can the Son not have any power except what the Father gives Him? (John 5:19, 30; 6:38).
6. Similarly, what about other verses of Scripture indicating the inequality of the Son and the Father? (John 8:42; 14:28; ICorinthians 11:3).
7. Did "God the Son" die? The Bible says the Son died (Romans 5:10). If so, can God die? Can part of God die?
8. How can there be an eternal Son when the Bible speaks of the begotten Son, clearly indicating that the Son had a beginning? (John 3:16; Hebrews 1:5-6).
9. If the Son is eternal and existed at creation, who was His mother at that time? We know the Son was made of a woman (Galatians 4:4).
10. Did "God the Son" surrender His omnipresence while on earth? If so, how could he still be God?
11. If the Son is eternal and immutable (unchangeable), how can the reign of the Son have an ending? (ICorinthians 15:24-28).
12. If in answer to questions 3 through 11 we say only the human Son of God was limited in knowledge, was limited in power, and died, then how can we speak of "God the Son"? Are there two Sons?
13. Whom do we worship and to whom do we pray? Jesus said to worship the Father (John 4:21-24), yet Stephen prayed to Jesus (Acts 7:59-60).
14. Can there be more than three persons in the Godhead? Certainly the Old Testament does not teach three but emphasizes oneness. If the New Testament adds to the Old Testament message and teaches three persons, then what is to prevent subsequent revelations of additional persons? If we apply trinitarian logic to interpret some verses of Scripture, we could teach a fourth person (Isaiah 48:16; Colossians 1:3; 2:2; IThessalonians 3:11; James 1:27). Likewise, we could interpret some verses of Scripture to mean six more persons (Revelation 3:1; 5:6).
15. Are there three Spirits in a Christian's heart? Father, Jesus, and the Spirit all dwell within a Christian (John 14:17, 23; Romans 8:9; Ephesians 3:14-17). Yet there is one Spirit (ICorinthians 12:13; Ephesians 4:4).
16. There is only one throne in heaven (Revelation 4:2). Who sits upon it? We know Jesus does (Revelation 1:8,18, 4:8). Where do the Father and the Holy Spirit sit?
17. If Jesus is on the throne, how can He sit on the right hand of God? (Mark 16:19). Does He sit or stand on the right hand of God? (Acts 7:55). Or is He in the Father's bosom? (John 1:18).
18. Is Jesus in the Godhead or is the Godhead in Jesus? Colossians 2:9 says the latter.
19. Given Matthew 28:19, why did the apostles consistently baptize both Jews and Gentiles using the name of Jesus, even to the extent of rebaptism? (Acts 2:38; 8:16; 10:48; 19:5; 22:16; ICorinthians 1:13).
20. Who raised Jesus from the dead? Did the Father (Ephesians 1:20), or Jesus (John 2:19-21), or the Spirit? (Romans 8:11).
21. If Son and Holy Ghost are co-equal persons in the Godhead, why is blasphemy of the Holy Ghost unforgivable but blasphemy of the Son is not? (Luke 12:10).
22. If the Holy Ghost is a co-equal member of the trinity, why does the Bible always speak of Him being sent from the Father or from Jesus? (John 14:26; 15:26).
23. Does the Father know something that the Holy Spirit does not know? If so, how can they be co-equal? Only the Father knows the day and hour of the Second Coming of Christ (Mark 13:32).
24. Did the trinity make the Old and New covenants? We know the LORD (Jehovah) did (Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 8:7-13). If Jehovah is a trinity then Father, Son, and Spirit all had to die to make the new covenant effective (Hebrews 9:16-17).
25. If the Spirit proceeds from the Father, is the Spirit also a son of the Father? If not, why not?
26. If the Spirit proceeds from the Son, is the Spirit the grandson of the Father? If not, why not?
__________________ And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Heb.1
[1] God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, [2] Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
[3] Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
[4] Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
[5] For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
[6] And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
__________________
Jesus said, "he who stands firm to the end will be saved" Mark 13:13.
Live Life in such a way that those who do not know Christ will come to know Him because they know you
A hive of beas is made up of a lot of beas but by themselves each bea is nothing. Together they are a hive and are like one "thing" that is the sum ofall "things" that make up the hive.
In a hive of beas, which bea is the most important?
There was once a monk who loved Christ Jesus and turned an entire country of pagans over to Christinaity. His name was St. Patrick. He prayed and fasted often. he wanted to explaoin to them the trinity and he said the Holy Soirit led him to pick up a shamrock...may I ask ..which one of the petals is most important?/. Are they separate.Are they one??
A hive of beas is made up of a lot of beas but by themselves each bea is nothing. Together they are a hive and are like one "thing" that is the sum ofall "things" that make up the hive.
In a hive of beas, which bea is the most important?
Robin down under
Brother, don't compare the Kingdom of Heaven with a bee hive.A bee colony is the truest form of Communism and there is no forgiveness for mistakes.
__________________
Jesus said, "he who stands firm to the end will be saved" Mark 13:13.
Live Life in such a way that those who do not know Christ will come to know Him because they know you
I could possibly be convinced if you guys could answer some of the many questions I have.
1. Did Jesus Christ have two fathers? The Father is the Father of the Son (IJohn 1:3), yet the child born of Mary was conceived by the Holy Ghost (Matthew 1:18, 20; Luke 1:35). Which one is the true father? Some trinitarians say that the Holy Ghost was merely the Father's agent in conception- a process they compare to artificial insemination!
That is a question that shows that you either don't understand the actual virgin birth or are being facetious. There is no way anyone with any understanding at all can attempt to make the Holy Spirit Christ's Father in the sense of a human Father, He did not have any type of relations, but merely placed the seed in her womb by way of , as the Scripture says---that which is conceived IN her is from the Holy Spirit.It takes some mighty big imagination to get from this that He fathered Christ. It was a creative act within her womb by the Holy Spirit--just as teh Scriptures say.
2. How many Spirits are there? God the Father is a Spirit (John 4:24), the Lord Jesus is a Spirit (IICorinthians 3:17), and the Holy Spirit is a Spirit by definition. Yet there is one Spirit (ICorinthians 12:13; Ephesians 4:4).
Easy--the Scripture says hat God is a Spirit,and everything else shows that God is 3 in one--one God, one Spirit.
3. If Father and Son are co-equal persons, why did Jesus pray to the Father? (Matthew 11:25). Can God pray to God?
As also being man, he was here to 'learn obedience', just as the Scripture says. He came to fulfill the law and all righteousness as teh second Adam(Romans 5), and to do so would certainly entail prayer. He was also God and even prayed showing how He was continuing His fellowship with the Father as He always had.(John 11:41,42, Hebrews 2, and 3) Also Matt 22:44 has this exchange of "The Lord says to my Lord: Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet." Both Son of God and son of man--as a man He would be praying, and as the Son, He was simply communing as He always had.
4. Similarly, how can the Son not know as much as the Father? (Matthew 24:36; Mark 13:32).
Part of His deliberate limitations in the' kenosois' you have spoken of. He was to live by faith, without perfect knowledge.
5. Similarly, how can the Son not have any power except what the Father gives Him? (John 5:19, 30; 6:38).Read the entire passage and you have your answer. This entire portionshows so clearly their distinctions and their harmony--equal yet no qualms with taking direction, and you see teh cross over where He (Christ) says that He(the Father) raises the dead, and then distinguishes between the fact that He(Christ) also 'gives life to whom He(Christ) is pleased to give it.'Verse 30 shows even more clearly the cohesion and the complete oneness(in the true sense of th eword--unity) of Christ fully cooperating by fully assuming His place in the plan of salvation--'for I seek not to please myself myself, but the One who sent me.' This is the beauty of the total commitment, and cohesion to do whatever was necesarry to achieve the salvation of mankind--although equal, He humbled Himself and became obedient,evne to the point of death on the cross. Verse 38, is just more evidence of the same--and He plainly states that He 'came down from heaven'. He didn't have an exchange of roles.
6. Similarly, what about other verses of Scripture indicating the inequality of the Son and the Father? (John 8:42; 14:28; ICorinthians 11:3).
How does verse 42 show any inequality? It just states that He came as part of teh Father's will--the Father's wil is that not any should perish, and He has an infallibl;e planthat includes the cooperation of the Son to humble Himself and to take on human likeness.
7. Did "God the Son" die? The Bible says the Son died (Romans 5:10). If so, can God die? Can part of God die?
No, of course not. The term Son Of God refers to His coming in the flesh,just as John 8:42 states , sent from the Father. He experienced physical death as a man, and even spiritual death by taking on HImself the sins of the world, My God ,My God! Why have you forsaken me!'--the Father turned away from Him at the moment He had our sins placed on Him--but of course He triumphed over death, hell, and the grave in the resurrection. It was much more than just coming back to life--it was the final victory over the evil one's deceptive usurping of man's authority and deceiving Adam and Eve into the original sin--the very reason in which He came.
8. How can there be an eternal Son when the Bible speaks of the begotten Son, clearly indicating that the Son had a beginning? (John 3:16; Hebrews 1:5-6).His humanity had a beginning--He is the only(unique) begotten, born into a physical body, but was God, which is what it means that He was the Son of God. No one before or after Him--God with us--Emmanuel--God--eternal--in the flesh. Unless you are willing to say that He isn't God? He was and is God,and yet was with God(John 1, Colssians 1 )He accepted worship( Thomas' proclamation,'My Lord and my God!)and even the Pharisees understood this, as evidenced when they made that very statement--you make yourself equal with God!
9. If the Son is eternal and existed at creation, who was His mother at that time? We know the Son was made of a woman (Galatians 4:4).
That's a silly question--He only had an earthly mother in His humanity--no more and no less.
10. Did "God the Son" surrender His omnipresence while on earth? If so, how could he still be God?
You know the amswer to that one as well. I don't know if anyone has the absolute answer there. All I know is that the Scripture calls Him the Son of God, son of man,Emmanuel, and says that He existed as God and was equal with God and thought that His equality wasn't something that He would hold on to , but humbled Himself to be found in fashion as a man and that He emptied Himself to do so.
11. If the Son is eternal and immutable (unchangeable), how can the reign of the Son have an ending? (ICorinthians 15:24-28).
That is a baited question He emptied Himself of His equality as God--undeniable--and He was God--undeniable, and He will overcome and make all His enemies His footstool--undeniable. It is not an end,but a beginning , or should I say a new beginning to reigning with the Father after fulfilling and finishing completely His ministry as the Son of God.
Ask yourself why the Faaher says sit at my right hand until I make all your enemies your footstool! Sounds like an equal arrangement--all for one and one for all!
12. If in answer to questions 3 through 11 we say only the human Son of God was limited in knowledge, was limited in power, and died, then how can we speak of "God the Son"? Are there two Sons?
I have no idea how you can ask such a question. He was Son of God and son of man. Remember, He emptied Himself, and placed Himself under the direction of the Father. He is the second person of the Trinity as shown in His beingborn in the flesh, yet being God--all because He had us in mind and our salvation, knowing that He was the Lamb of God, slain before the foundation of the world.
13. Whom do we worship and to whom do we pray? Jesus said to worship the Father (John 4:21-24), yet Stephen prayed to Jesus (Acts 7:59-60).
Well, that ought to tell you something about their co equlaity!
14. Can there be more than three persons in the Godhead? Certainly the Old Testament does not teach three but emphasizes oneness. If the New Testament adds to the Old Testament message and teaches three persons, then what is to prevent subsequent revelations of additional persons? If we apply trinitarian logic to interpret some verses of Scripture, we could teach a fourth person (Isaiah 48:16; Colossians 1:3; 2:2; IThessalonians 3:11; James 1:27). Likewise, we could interpret some verses of Scripture to mean six more persons (Revelation 3:1; 5:6).
THe sovereign Lord with His Spirit--the Holy Spirit. No even slight difficulty there! Colossians 1:3 implies more persons!?!?! ---We thank God--the Father of our Lord Jesus--again--where's the difficulty? God the Father, and God the Son.Then in Clossians 2 , Paul directly cals Christ God. I don't get any connection here at all--even ever so slightly of any sligh insinuation of any other persons.1 Thess 3:11 isno different--infcat it gives the distinction between God th eFather and OUR LORD Jesus--Lord is a title given to God--so we still have only 3 as being referred to as God so far! James1:27 is referring--again to God the Father.REv 3;1 is using symbolic language--angel, meaning messenger, seven spirits, the seven churches as referred to in chapter 1:4 and the seven stars or lights--all symbolic of something completely other than any reference to anypersons in the God head---completely impertinent. 5:6 is no different.
15. Are there three Spirits in a Christian's heart? Father, Jesus, and the Spirit all dwell within a Christian (John 14:17, 23; Romans 8:9; Ephesians 3:14-17). Yet there is one Spirit (ICorinthians 12:13; Ephesians 4:4).
Use the logical mind that God gave a goose--if He is One God and 3 in one, there is only one Spirit.
16. There is only one throne in heaven (Revelation 4:2). Who sits upon it? We know Jesus does (Revelation 1:8,18, 4:8). Where do the Father and the Holy Spirit sit?
Together as One just as always. Why did He say to sit at my right hand--the Father to the Son. ASgain,apply logic--One God, One throne.
17. If Jesus is on the throne, how can He sit on the right hand of God? (Mark 16:19). Does He sit or stand on the right hand of God? (Acts 7:55). Or is He in the Father's bosom? (John 1:18).
All symbolic of His authority as symbolized in the OT story of Joseph, who was a type of Christ.
18. Is Jesus in the Godhead or is the Godhead in Jesus? Colossians 2:9 says the latter.
Another loaded question which is simply answered again with the very definition of God as being 3 in one. He is God, as the Father, and the Spirit--the Godhead.
19. Given Matthew 28:19, why did the apostles consistently baptize both Jews and Gentiles using the name of Jesus, even to the extent of rebaptism? (Acts 2:38; 8:16; 10:48; 19:5; 22:16; ICorinthians 1:13).
Acts 2:38--read it and see again a picture of th eTrinity. Baptized in the name of Jesus, and receive the Holy Spirit, and in 39, the promise is from the Lord our God.Disticntions clearly made again. I ahve already addessd this . You want to imply that Jesus was somehow confused when He commanded the disciples to baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Now, the disciples later are not carryingthis out, according to you, but rather in the name of Jesus only. Read th everses before and after to put it in context and in perspective. verse 17--they worshipped Him--Christ, and He received it--who are we to worship but God? He then proclaimed that ALL AUTHORITY IN HEAVEN AND IN EARTHHAS BEENGIVEN TO ME.THEREFORE go ...and then , surely I am with you, even until the end of the age. You want to attempt to make a conflicting distinction between the disciples and Christ's command hat doesn't exist. To baptize in the name of Jesus is to include the Father, and The Spirit,since there was no ambivalence or distortion in their view of who Christ was in relation to the Father and the Spirit.
20. Who raised Jesus from the dead? Did the Father (Ephesians 1:20), or Jesus (John 2:19-21), or the Spirit? (Romans 8:11).
John 2--I (Christ will raise it) --Christ is God, Ephesians 1:20--the Father who is God, and the Spirit , who is God--all 3 represented again. You see, no conflict when you understand and see the Trinity
God raised Him from the dead.
21. If Son and Holy Ghost are co-equal persons in the Godhead, why is blasphemy of the Holy Ghost unforgivable but blasphemy of the Son is not? (Luke 12:10).
Tp blaspheme against the Spirit is to ultimately and finally reject His drawing and convincing work to the point that you have no recourse for being forgiven. I already asked you trhis one--and others as well, without the benefit of an answer.Are you implying that the Spoirit of God is superior? If so,how, since they are supposedly the same in differing roles?
22. If the Holy Ghost is a co-equal member of the trinity, why does the Bible always speak of Him being sent from the Father or from Jesus? (John 14:26; 15:26). That is exactly what exemplifies the essence of the Trinity. The Son placed HIMSELF under the Father's authority , humbling HImself, although equal with God, and the Spirit then is just as cooperative and no need for self proclamation and perfectly willing to speak of the Son and tos ubject Himself to His authority for the furtherance and establishment of the kingdom of God's dear Son--our salvation. In this 'attitude' of being submissive and having zero conflict or dispute over their office and ministry, you see th eperfect TRI-UNITY that is termed the Trinity.
23. Does the Father know something that the Holy Spirit does not know? If so, how can they be co-equal? Only the Father knows the day and hour of the Second Coming of Christ (Mark 13:32).To have this knowledge has no bearing on equality whatsoever--it is simply th eorder of things within the Godhead.In your home,is your wife less than you because of the order of placing the man as head of the house? Nope--just brings order.With us itis commanded, and broken--within th eTRinity it is understood and completely accepted without any feeling of being 'slighted' or inferior.
24. Did the trinity make the Old and New covenants? We know the LORD (Jehovah) did (Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 8:7-13). If Jehovah is a trinity then Father, Son, and Spirit all had to die to make the new covenant effective (Hebrews 9:16-17).
Come on--Christ is the Son, the Lamb of God whose place and ministry itwas to die for our sins.That is a queston that becomes completely moot when you understand God as Triune.
25. If the Spirit proceeds from the Father, is the Spirit also a son of the Father? If not, why not?No,because He wasn't made flesh--which is what the Son of God refers to.
26. If the Spirit proceeds from the Son, is the Spirit the grandson of the Father? If not, why not?
Again--answered by the previous reply.
Questions
A bee colony is the truest form of Communism and there is no forgiveness for mistakes.
