This verse (Matthew 27:46) cannot describe an actual separation between Father and Son because Jesus is the Father. Jesus said, "I and my Father are one"(John 10:30). The Bible states that "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself"(IICorinthians 5:19). Jesus was God the Father made manifest in flesh to reconcile the world to Himself. The cry of Jesus on the cross does not mean that the Spirit of God had departed from the body, but that there was no help from the Spirit in His sacrificial death of substitution for sinful mankind. It was not one person of the Godhead being deserted by another, but the human nature feeling the wrath and judgment of God upon the sins of mankind.
There were not two sons- a divine son and a human son- but there were two natures- deity and humanity- fused in one person. The divine Spirit could not be separated from the human nature and life continue. But in His agonizing process of dying, Jesus suffered the pains of our sins. Dying became death when He yielded His Spirit.
In other words, what Jesus meant when He cried, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" was that he had taken the place of sinful man on the cross and was suffering the full punishment for sin. There was no abatement of suffering because of His deity. Since all have sinned (Romans 3:23) and the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), all mankind (except for the sinless Christ) deserved to die. Christ took our place and suffered the death that we deserved (Romans 5:6-9). Jesus was more than a courageous martyr like Stephen and more than an Old Testament sacrifice, because He died in our place and experienced for a time the death we deserved. On the cross, He tasted death for every man (Hebrews 2:9). This death was more than physical death; it also involved spiritual death, which is separation from God (IIThessalonians 1:9; Revelation 20:14).
No one alive on earth has felt this spiritual death in its fullest degree, because all of us live, move, and have our being in God (Acts 17:28). Even the atheist enjoys many good things such as joy, love, and life itself. Every good thing comes from God (James 1:17), and all life originates from Him and is upheld by Him. But, Jesus tasted ultimate death- the separation from God that a sinner will feel in the lake of fire. He felt the anguish, hopelessness, and despair as if he were a man eternally forsaken by God. So the human nature of Jesus cried out on the cross as Jesus took on the sin of the whole world and felt the eternal punishment of separation for that sin (IPeter 2:24).
We must not assume that the Spirit of God departed from the body of Jesus the moment He uttered the words, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" The divine Spirit left the human body only at death. Hebrews 9:14 says that Christ offered Himself to God through the eternal Spirit. Moreover, Jesus told His disciples with respect to His death, Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that he shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me"(John 16:32). Thus, the eternal Spirit of God, the Father, did not leave the human body of Christ until Christ's death
__________________ And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
It has always been my understanding that He was repeating one of the Psalms of David(i.e. Psalm 22) that would have been quickly recognized as a praise to God. He of course knew that God would not forsake Him and Psalm 22 is testimony to that.In light ofthat, clearly the phrase "my God my God why hast thou forsaken me" doesn't mean that the spirit of God had left him. In fact quite the opposite. Jesus was simply reciting the first few words a prayer of faith and deliverance, even in the face of his torment, in orderto comfort those witnessing His execution and to remind us all of God's promise. Wow!
Some say by repeating Psalm 22 that Jesus was alsoreminding everyone that this event was actually fullfilling prophesy. If you read through it I think there is evidence for that.
Anyway, many anti Christians use this phrase to say that Jesus actually lost faith in the very end but again in light of Psalm 22 I think he was actually displaying a remarkable strength of faith and I think this is a wonderfull and positive explanation of why he used those words.
I appologize for digging out this thread as apparently there wasn't much interest in it when leaf first posted it. But I think leaf brings up a pretty important topic. Afterall, what do you say to the non believer when they tell you that Jesus Himself at the last moment realized that it was all a lie and that verse proves it? Anyway, I've said what I've been taught it meant and so has leaf. Seems as though someone else could comment. I for one would be very interested in what others have to say. Thanks in advance!
Sylvan, I really do'nt have much I feel to add to my previous post but to say that I think that this ordeal of our Lord is a much neglected subject and it shoul'nt be so.
Even with all the pain, Jesus thought of others rather than Himself. His first words from the cross were, "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do" (Luke 23:34). He thought of His mother, who stood by the cross weeping, and asked his beloved disciple John to take care of her. On either side of Jesus were two thieves executed at the same time. When one of them accepted Jesus as Lord, Jesus shared with him, "To day shalt thou be with Me in paradise" (Luke 23:43). Finally, Jesus expressed his complete surrender to the will of God as He said, "It is finished;" (John 19:30). "Father, into Thy hands I commend My spirit" (Luke 23:46). Jesus gave Himself willingly for you and me. Jesus suffered a horrible death for you and me. Jesus loved us so much that He willingly died in utter shame and pain for our sins. In fact, the Bible teaches us that He who was without sin was literally "made sin" for us. God, in human form, allowed himself to be made sin to save us. On the cross, he bore all the world's sin because of His love. The only way to complete what He did for us is to love Him in return.
__________________ And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
I agree with most of that post. But God the Father is not Jesus. Jesus is the Eternal Son. The Holy Spirit is not Jesus. The Holy Spirit is no the Father. Jesus is not the Father. The Father isn't the Holy Spirit. They are all three, separate persons in the same God. Their wills and natures are the same. Their purpose is the same. But they have different roles in the Trinity. The Father creates, the Son redeems, and the Spirit comforts.
They are different persons...with the same nature. God the Father is not human. God the Son was made human and took on the full wrath of the Father in "being made sin" for us.
There was no actual separation because God cannot be divided against himself.
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πνεύμα γ*μισα
"Error never shows itself in its naked reality in order not to be discovered. On the contrary, it dresses elegantly, so that the unwary may be led to believe that it is more truthful than truth itself."
-Irenaeus of Lyon
1st John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
It's pretty cut and dry. We all know that John referred to Jesus as the word too in the gospel of John.. They are one, however very different for one another. I know some have said the trinity is not mentioned in the New Testament.. I may be wrong, but this is the verse that I am going to stand on. John was very specific about thethree.
If he is in you,then he will lead you to know him better...Some shake as I do to fear him...some embrace him as a brother....But we must fear before we can believe and understand him.... I shake from the thought of knowing him....I believe he will comfort me and give me warmth....only thru these stages can one understand...-
1st John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
It's pretty cut and dry. We all know that John referred to Jesus as the word too in the gospel of John.. They are one, however very different for one another.
I know some have said the trinity is not mentioned in the New Testament.. I may be wrong, but this is the verse that I am going to stand on. John was very specific about the three.
It does seem pretty specific Bro Rev and even tho in itself it can be argued from a oneness viewpoint it would give me pause to do so if it were'nt for all the evidence that this passage was not originally a part of 1John. Almost all Bible scholars believe that this verse is not really part of the Bible at all . . .also most Bible scholars are trinity folk. All major translations since the KJV have omitted it.
However, I prefer the KJV above other translations so I take the verse with the rest of the Bible and stand it up with the many other Scriptures that . . . .at least show me that God is one and I see that by itself it seems to contradict if I give it a trinity explanation.
In any case, it does not divide Father, Word, and Spirit into distinct persons any more than a man, his word, and his spirit are distinct persons, but it describes the ways God has made Himself known to us. And it concludes, "These three are one." In contrast to verse 8, it does not merely say, "These three agree in one."
Bro Rev, I don't believe that you are going to get all into this subject with me and likewise I would'nt debate with you either on an open forum if I in any way thought that any animosity would arise from it between you and I.
__________________ And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me
