Well, here it is with deer season right on top of me and I'm posting on the forum instead of planting pasture, cutting shooting lanes, and scouting for new stand locations.[&:] Actually tho my sweet darling Liz is going for surgery monday and was directed to not eat today and tomorrow, so I'm staying home and following her fast with her in support.
I thought I'd try to explain how "oneness" believing christians see the Scriptures . . .to explain the perspective most of us have in the interpretation thereof.
There are four important points. If we understand these clearly, most seemingly difficult verses of Scripture become readily explainable.
(1) When we see a plural (especially a duality) in reference to Jesus, we think of the humanity and deity of Jesus Christ. There is a real duality, but it is a distinction between Spirit and Flesh, not a distinction of persons in God.
(2) Jesus spoke and acted both as God and as a genuine human, and some statements stress one role more than the other. Everything that we can say or do as humans, Jesus could say or do as a human, except that He never sinned. In every way that we can relate to God, Jesus related to God, except that He never needed to repent or be born again. At the same time, the Spirit of God dwelt fully in Him; He was God manifested in the flesh.
(3) When we see a plural in relation to God, we view it as a plurality of roles or relationships to humanity, not as a plurality of persons.
(4) The NT writers had no concept of the doctrine of the trinity, which was still far in the future. They came from a strict monotheistic Jewish background. . . one God was not an issue with them at all. Some passages may seem to describe multiple persons in a Godhead to us at first glance because folks thru the centuries have used them and interpreted them according to their doctrine. However, to the early church, who had no concept of a future tritheistic doctrine, these same passages were readily understandable. There was no thought of contradicting either strict monotheism or the deity of Jesus.
__________________ And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
If God is only one person, why did Jesus say(John 14:23)"If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." If God is only one person, why does Jesus say, "we"?
Alright, this isn't a pointed question...truely out of curiousity because I've still never lined out exactly what each "camp" believes.
Leaf, or anyone, how does the Oneness 'camp' deal with the Holy Spirit/Ghost? Do they not recognize him, not recognize him as a "third"...I'm just curious because of the statements about "no concept of the doctrine of a trinity".
Thanks
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Anything I say is my opinion, just that...and only that.
"...and what does the Lord require of you, but to do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with your God?
If God is only one person, why did Jesus say(John 14:23)"If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." If God is only one person, why does Jesus say, "we"?
"Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him."
Realize that the Lord was not speaking of His bodily entrance into us. Moreover, if there are two Spirits of God, one of the Son and another of the Father, then there would be at least two Spirits in our hearts. However, Ephesians 4:4 declares there is one Spirit. We know John 14:23 does not mean bodily entrance because Jesus had said, "At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you"(John 14:20). Certainly we are not in Jesus in the sense of the physical. So this passage means a union- one in mind, purpose, plan, and life- with Christ. This is the same idea expressed in John 17:21-22 when Jesus prayed, "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one."
God has designed salvation in order to reconcile the believer with Himself. However, sinful man cannot approach a holy God, and finite man cannot comprehend an infinite God. The only way we can be reconciled to God and understand Him is through His manifestation in flesh, through the sinless man Jesus Christ. When we are one with Jesus, then we automatically are one with God, since Jesus is not just a man but God also. Jesus used the plural to emphasize that in order to be united with God we must first receive the atonement through the blood of Jesus. There is one mediator between man and God, the man Jesus (ITimothy 2:5). No one comes to God except through Jesus (John 14:6). To be doctrinally correct, we must acknowledge that Jesus is come in the flesh (IJohn 4:2-3). When we receive Christ, we have received both the Father and the Son (IIJohn 9). Our union with Father and Son is not a union with two persons in the Godhead, but simply a union with God through the man Jesus: "To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself" (IICorinthians 5:19).
__________________ And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Leaf, or anyone, how does the Oneness 'camp' deal with the Holy Spirit/Ghost? Do they not recognize him, not recognize him as a "third"...I'm just curious because of the statements about "no concept of the doctrine of a trinity".
Thanks
The Holy Spirit is simply God. God is Holy (Leviticus 11:44; 1 Peter 1:16). In fact, He alone is holy in Himself. God is also a Spirit (John 4:24), and there is only one Spirit of God (1 Corinthians 12:11; Ephesians 4:4). Therefore, "Holy Spirit" is another term for the one God.
That the Holy Ghost is God is evident from a comparison of Acts 5:3 with 5:4 and from a comparison of 1 Corinthians 3:16 with 6:19. These passages identify the Holy Ghost with God Himself.
He who is the holy, omnipresent, and invisible Spirit works among all people everywhere and can fill the hearts of people. When we speak of the Holy Spirit, we are reminding ourselves of God"s invisible work among humans and of His ability to anoint, baptize, fill, and dwell in human lives. The term speaks of God in activity: "And the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters" (Genesis 1:2). It refers to God working among humans to regenerate their fallen nature and enable them to do the will of God in the world. The Spirit is the agent in the new birth (John 3:5; Titus 3:5).
__________________ And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Well, here it is with deer season right on top of me and I'm posting on the forum instead of planting pasture, cutting shooting lanes, and scouting for new stand locations.[&:] Actually tho my sweet darling Liz is going for surgery monday and was directed to not eat today and tomorrow, so I'm staying home and following her fast with her in support.
I thought I'd try to explain how "oneness" believing christians see the Scriptures . . .to explain the perspective most of us have in the interpretation thereof.
There are four important points. If we understand these clearly, most seemingly difficult verses of Scripture become readily explainable.
(1) When we see a plural (especially a duality) in reference to Jesus, we think of the humanity and deity of Jesus Christ. There is a real duality, but it is a distinction between Spirit and Flesh, not a distinction of persons in God. This 'duality' you speak of is not anything close to the true duality of Christendom--100% man and God --at the same time. It sounds more like double talk ( not saying that sarcastically--just as a matter of a figure of speech)to rationalize the numerous references of His divinity and humanity as being a part of His offering Himself to be the Lamb of God, Emanuel, God with us.
(2) Jesus spoke and acted both as God and as a genuine human, and some statements stress one role more than the other. Everything that we can say or do as humans, Jesus could say or do as a human, except that He never sinned. In every way that we can relate to God, Jesus related to God, except that He never needed to repent or be born again. At the same time, the Spirit of God dwelt fully in Him; He was God manifested in the flesh. Leaves way too much open for explaining His humanity, whle still being omnipresent---not possible. Nor does it explain His speaking to , being in accord with the Father's will, and sending the Spirit who also speaks, and appears simultaneously with the Son and Father on several ocasions.Just a few logistical problems.
(3) When we see a plural in relation to God, we view it as a plurality of roles or relationships to humanity, not as a plurality of persons. This plurality is exactly where the problem lies---when He was dying on the cross, who was He praying to--Himself? Who descended on Him in the form of a dove--Himself? Who spoke and said , 'this is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased--Himself? ETC- WETC- ETC
(4) The NT writers had no concept of the doctrine of the trinity, which was still far in the future. They came from a strict monotheistic Jewish background. . . one God was not an issue with them at all. Some passages may seem to describe multiple persons in a Godhead to us at first glance because folks thru the centuries have used them and interpreted them according to their doctrine. However, to the early church, who had no concept of a future tritheistic doctrine, these same passages were readily understandable. There was no thought of contradicting either strict monotheism or the deity of Jesus.
{Unfortunately that is not the case, since the Scriptural basis for the Trinity, (Tritheism is entirely a different theology) begins in Genesis, and in the verse that you guys like to quote the most--the Lord our God is one--One not as a number, but in the meaning of cohesiveness, and continues throughout the entire scriptural body. And, it doesn't just suddenly appear out of thin air one day at a meeting. It was the formal terming of the concept that became evident as Christ was revealed initially and His work and His function in the paln of salvation began to unfold, and gave understanding to His relationship to the Father, and the Son, and their function and work in God's plan.}
You've been putting out this 'bait' for a while now, so I am going to bite!
{Unfortunately that is not the case, since the Scriptural basis for the Trinity, (Tritheism is entirely a different theology) begins in Genesis, and in the verse that you guys like to quote the most--the Lord our God is one--One not as a number, but in the meaning of cohesiveness, and continues throughout the entire scriptural body. And, it doesn't just suddenly appear out of thin air one day at a meeting. It was the formal terming of the concept that became evident as Christ was revealed initially and His work and His function in the paln of salvation began to unfold, and gave understanding to His relationship to the Father, and the Son, and their function and work in God's plan.}
You've been putting out this 'bait' for a while now, so I am going to bite!
So you are in effect saying that the original apostles fully understood and preached a trinity? They actually viewed the Godhead as three separate beings? Why then after Jesus commanded His disciples to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost did they disobey Him and elected to baptize in the name of Jesus as documented in every Scriptural record of baptism?
Also Scriptural references would be nice as far as explaining how God is not one in number but in cohesivness. Plus this "formal terming" came about some while after Christ was initially revealed. There is no question that Christian trinitarianism developed over several centuries of time after the New Testament was written. According to The New Catholic Encyclopedia,historians of dogma and systematic theologians recognize:
When one does speak of an unqualified Trinitarianism, one has moved from the period of Christian origins to, say, the last quadrant of the 4th century" From what has been seen thus far, the impression could arise that the Trinitarian dogma is in the last analysis a late 4th century invention. In a sense, this is true but it implies an extremely strict interpretation of the key words Trinitarian and dogma" The formulation 'one God in three Persons' was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma.
__________________ And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
I believe in doctrine of a trinity".Father,Son ,Holy Spirit,all one God,,I explain it to my kids as God made us ,came to earth asJesus to saveus from our sinsandHisSpirit lives on the earthto strength-un us and help us, do His Will
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"God grant me the serenity to accept the people I cannot change, the courage to change the ONE I can change, and the wisdmon to know that it's ME"
Mac,
The oneness doctrine is actually pretty new to me and admittedly I am not aware of exactly what you all believe. Based on what I know of scripture I do see some problems for oneness believers.
For instance do you believe that Jesus is his own father?
When Jesus is praying in Luke 22:42 was he praying to God the father or was he praying to himself? And if you believe he was praying to himself why did he pray that "thy will be done" and not "that my will be done"
Do you believe that Jesus is in bodily form now (Col. 2:9)? If so, where does that leave the holy spirit?
Also what about Stephen seeing Jesus standing on the right side of God?
Acts 7:55 says......"But he, being full of the Holy Ghost looked up steadfastly into heaven , and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God".
The oneness doctrine is actually pretty new to me and admittedly I am not aware of exactly what you all believe. Based on what I know of scripture I do see some problems for oneness believers.
For instance do you believe that Jesus is his own father? I believe that Christ was God manifest in the flesh . . .that in His deity He was the Father incarnate and in His flesh , the Son of God.
When Jesus is praying in Luke 22:42 was he praying to God the father or was he praying to himself? And if you believe he was praying to himself why did he pray that "thy will be done" and not "that my will be done"Check out the "Prayers of Jesus thread."
Do you believe that Jesus is in bodily form now (Col. 2:9)? If so, where does that leave the holy spirit? The "body of Christ" is a visible manifestation of the invisible God . .who is the Holy Spirit
Also what about Stephen seeing Jesus standing on the right side of God?
Acts 7:55 says......"But he, being full of the Holy Ghost looked up steadfastly into heaven , and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God". I'll do another thread on the right hand of God and it will explain this and other similar questions.
__________________ And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
How Oneness Interpret Scripture
