[blockquote] All professing Christians are agreed, in theory at least, that it is the bounden duty of those who bear His name to honour and glorify Christ in this world. But as to how this is to be done, as to what He requires from us to this end, there is wide difference of opinion. Few indeed realize that Christ is honoured only as we live wholly unto Him, and that, by walking in subjection to His revealed will. Few indeed really believe that word, "Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams" (I Sam. 15:22).
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We are not Christians at all unless we have fully surrendered to and "received Christ Jesus the Lord"(Col. 2:6). We would plead with you to ponder that statement diligently. Satan is deceiving many today by leading them to suppose that they are savingly trusting in "the finished work" of Christ while their hearts remain unchanged and self still rules their lives. Listen to God"s Word: "Salvation is far from the wicked; for they seek not thy statutes" (Psa. 119:155). Do you really seek His statutes? Do you diligently search His Word to discover what He has commanded? "He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him" (I John 2:4). What could be plainer than that?
"And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" (Luke 6:46). Obedience to the Lord in life, not merely glowing words from the lips, is what Christ requires. What a searching and solemn word is that in James 1:22: "Be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves!" There are many hearers of the Word, regular hearers, reverent hearers, interested hearers; but alas, what they hear is not incorporated into the life: it does not regulate their way. And God says that they who are not doers of the Word are deceiving their own selves!
Alas, how many such there are in Christendom today! They are not downright hypocrites, but deluded. They suppose that because they are so dear upon salvation by grace alone they are saved. They suppose that because they sit under the ministry of a man who has made the Bible a new book to them they have grown in grace. They suppose that because their store of biblical knowledge has increased they are more spiritual. They suppose that the mere listening to a servant of God or reading his writings is feeding on the Word. Not so! We feed on the Word only when we personally appropriate, masticate and assimilate into our lives what we hear or read. Where there is not an increasing conformity of heart and life to God"s Word, then increased knowledge will only bring increased condemnation. "And that servant, which knew his lord"s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes" (Luke 12:47).
God has given us His Word not only with the design of instructing us, but for the purpose of directing us: to make known what He requires us to do.The first thing we need is a clear and distinct knowledge of our duty; and the first thing God demands of us is a conscientious practice of it, corresponding to our knowledge. "What doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?" (Micah 6:8). "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man" (Eccles. 12:13). The Lord Jesus affirmed the same thing when He said, "Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you" (John 15:14).
I was saying, "Amen" and " this is so true" until I read this part . . .
Quote:
They suppose that because they are so dear upon salvation by grace alone they are saved.
And that is where it departs from The Word. Eph. 2:8-9 says "By GRACE you have been saved through faith and that that not of youselves. It is the gift of God, NOT OF WORKS, lest anyman should boast.
That verse, and many others makes it clear that God saves us by His grace through our faith -- it isn't our works which are as filthy rags before the Holy God we serve. I agree FULLY that we, as children of God, are to be diligent and to perservere in serving Him and being obedient to Him. I pretty much agree with most of everything else stated in the post. However, to say that our salvation depends on our works doesn't square with God's Word and seems to me to be disrepectful to God. It is like saying that Christ's work on the cross wasn't enough -- that WE have to finish the work ourselves.
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Today' s small bucks are tomorrow' s trophies.
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I was saying, "Amen" and " this is so true" until I read this part . . .
Quote:
They suppose that because they are so dear upon salvation by grace alone they are saved.
And that is where it departs from The Word. Eph. 2:8-9 says "By GRACE you have been saved through faith and that that not of youselves. It is the gift of God, NOT OF WORKS, lest anyman should boast.
That verse, and many others makes it clear that God saves us by His grace through our faith -- it isn't our works which are as filthy rags before the Holy God we serve. I agree FULLY that we, as children of God, are to be diligent and to perservere in serving Him and being obedient to Him. I pretty much agree with most of everything else stated in the post. However, to say that our salvation depends on our works doesn't square with God's Word and seems to me to be disrepectful to God. It is like saying that Christ's work on the cross wasn't enough -- that WE have to finish the work ourselves.
And that is where it departs from The Word. Eph. 2:8-9 says "By GRACE you have been saved through faith and that that not of youselves. It is the gift of God, NOT OF WORKS, lest anyman should boast. Dave H
LOL Dave..and this my dear brother is what separates baptist from the rest. All of Jesus teachings declare that works MUST follow conversion or you will be lost.Paul is actually saying the same thing if his verses arenot pulled out of context. The next verse verse 10 says the same thing...."we are His workmanship unto good works. "One can write it bluntly or sweetly .It doesn't matter how it's written .Apart from obedience we are lost. WE would be catorgorized as 'Children of disobedience. ' Those who built their house upon the sand. "They professed that they knew me but by their WORKS they deny me. "They are damned.
C7
"Two men went up into the temple to pray; one was a Pharisee, and the other was a tax collector.
11The Pharisee stood and prayed to himself like this:'God, I thank you, that I am not like the rest of men, extortioners, unrighteous, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.
12I fast twice a week. I give tithes of all that I get.'
14[/size][/font]15But the tax collector, standing far away, wouldn't even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying,'God, be merciful to me, a sinner!'
18[font=arial][color=#800080][size=2]19I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted."
Some people just can't stand to give God the glory for their salvation. Rather twisting and turning the scripture to fit their saved by works doctrines. I am like Paul in that I confess myself to be chief of sinners and most deserving of damnation. I praise God daily for saving a wretch like me. The real delusion is the false notion some seem to have that they can earn or sustain their salvation by their so called good works. When we do good works it is because we are saved, not to become saved.
Great post Chuck. It boils down to the question that I asked over and over, and could never be given a straight answer: Do we do something, or do we do absolutely nothing? Christ died for all, so is everyone saved regardless? If not, then how can we have absolutely no role to play? If you believe that everyone's destiny was chosen from the beginning and nothing we do can change that one way or the other, they why do you bother posting here?
Again I'll ask: Was Naaman cleansed when he believed, or when he obeyed? Did Saul (Paul) get his sight back when he believed, or when he obeyed? Did the walls of Jericho fall when the Israelites believed, or when they obeyed? The list could go on and on and on. One has to blatently disregard numerous examples and scripture ("he that believethand is baptized shall be saved") to cling to the notion that our obedience is not required. Where in the Bible are we shown an act of obedience coming AFTER God's grace? Was Lot saved from destruction, then told to leave and not look back? Was Noah saved from the flood, then told to build a boat? Was Moses spared the act of sacrificing Issac, then told to go through the motions anyway?
God demands obedience, period.
A great deal of deception comes in when folks twist and misconstrue the facts concerning folks that believe salvation comes after obedience. False accusations such as "you think you can earn your salvation", "you don't believe Christ finished His work and you have to finish it for him", "you think you can add to Christ's perfect work", etc. etc. etc. If those accusations were true, there would be a justifyable argument--however, they are blatently false, and those that make them will not listen to the facts because it leaves them without an argument. The best they can do is continually repeat the false accusations and mislead others along the way.
I can only speak for myself, but I believe most others that believe the scriptures mean what they say will agree. I DO NOT believe I can earn my salvation. We know that salvation is a free gift from God, bought and paid for with Christ's blood. I know that I must recieve and come in contact with that blood in order to recieve the benefits of it. I know that God gave the rules, and it's up to me to follow them. Will you call obeyingGod "filthy rags"?
Again, the simple scenario of an inheritance.Say I recieve a notice that I've been left a fortune by someone I never knew, never did a thing for, didn't even know they existed. The person that leftit to me just did it out of the kindness of their heart. All I have to do is go to thecourthouse and sign a few legal documents, and the inheritance is mine. If I don't sign them, I don't get a penny.
Now, by signing those documents (obeying the rules set forth by the authority), am I earning this inheritance? Can I brag about how I worked to gain it?The answer to both of those is absolutely not, but some folks will accuse me of doing that exact same thing when I say we are obligated to obey the rules that God (the authority) set forth for us to get into Christ (Romans 6:3, Galatians 3:27).
We either have to hear, believe, repent, confess, and be baptized--allcommands that require our participation--or we don't. There is no logical separation--"you have to hear and repent, but those aren'treally physical acts"--that's a pitiful excuse at trying to get around what the Bible plainly states.
We are either required to do something, or we do absolutely nothing. There are no in-betweens, regardless of how you want to argue it. If we do something, they why do you argue that certain acts of obedience are just filthy rags, while others are requirements? Where does God give any commands that are optional? If you believe we do absolutely nothing and/or our destiny was sealed from the beginning of time, why do you even post? Nothing you do or say can alter the destiny of anyone--you are simply arguing for the sake of arguing.
Chad
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"We can have no '50-50' allegiance in this country. Either a man is an American and nothing else, or he is not an American at all."-- Theodore Roosevelt
A wise man's heart is at his right hand; but a fool's heart at his left. Ecclesiasties 10:2
The last four letters in American..........I Can
The last four letters in Republican........I Can
The last four letters in Democrats.........Rats
I was saying, "Amen" and " this is so true" until I read this part . . .
Quote:
They suppose that because they are so dear upon salvation by grace alone they are saved.
And that is where it departs from The Word. Eph. 2:8-9 says "By GRACE you have been saved through faith and that that not of youselves. It is the gift of God, NOT OF WORKS, lest anyman should boast.
That verse, and many others makes it clear that God saves us by His grace through our faith -- it isn't our works which are as filthy rags before the Holy God we serve. I agree FULLY that we, as children of God, are to be diligent and to perservere in serving Him and being obedient to Him. I pretty much agree with most of everything else stated in the post. However, to say that our salvation depends on our works doesn't square with God's Word and seems to me to be disrepectful to God. It is like saying that Christ's work on the cross wasn't enough -- that WE have to finish the work ourselves.
Absolutely DH! And it isn't a Baptist verses the rest issue at all.I am not Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, or any denomination first and foremost. I grew up in the Presbyterian church, and am presently a member of a Baptist church because it is a God fearing ,Bible centered body of believers--not becasue of loyalty to a certain doctrinal issue.It is the entire word, and its full meaning and the order in which works come into play. Salvation by faith, workmanship created UNTO, notBY good works, be not conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, which is your reasonable service. It is reasonable because of what you have been given and teh forgiveness you have received--not acheived! You learn to serve, to obey, to follow after you have been spiritually born. Do you ask a baby to qualify itself into your family, or is it born into the family, and because it is a part of the family, it grows, matures, gradually developing into its role as a member of the family? The scriptures are very clear that we are dead inour trespasses and sins. WE come to life through being born again, a spirtual birth. Not by trying to create a pile of good works that is bigger than our pile of wrong. How does a dead man do anything spiritual, seeing tha the Word says that the natural man casnnot receive spiritual things nor understand them? When does the work pile become big enough and good enough to be granted by God your new birth? How much is "enough"? Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy He has saved us! According to this position, you are in and out based on todays performance. How many times are you allowed to be born again, and again, and again? It isn't based on me or my peformance, but on Christ's finished work! Period! I am to receive by faith and repentance the FREE gift that Christ acheived, before I ever had any inclination to even look His way.God commended His love toward us, in that while we were YET sinners, Christ died for the ungodly. Why did He die if we can acheive it by our works?As Paul said in Galatians--who has bewitched you? The whole point of Gaaltians is to warn against this very issue! Whenhe says you have fallen from grace, many try to sy that he is saying that you can lose your salvation. That is totallyoff teh mark. He is sayingthat th eJudaizers which were trying to mix faith and works were shifting from a position of faith and grace to a legal one of abtaining it or adding to it. Gal 1:6,7 says,I am astonished that you ae so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to another gospel--which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. How were they perverting it--by mixing faith and works as a requirement for salvation! Read the entire chapter and see what he is saying. Works are the end result of truly being born again--not a requirement for qualification ! They follow, not precede. It is an absolute insut to the finished work of Christ to think that what we bring to the table can somehow add anything to what He accomplished--that is why Paul stated tha you have fallen fromgrace--it is now an issue of legality, not grace!
Why argue thatour righteousnessis filthy rags--because the Lord says they are! You say it is by faith , yet you contradict yourself when you make it , in any way, dependent on us--outside of faith and repentance, which the Bible says is the GIFT of God, not works lest ANY MAN should BOAST!. How can someone who is spiritually dead, in tresspasses and sins please God? You must be first born again, and then we grow spiritually to produce works, and obedience is one of the reasonable,normal, expected results of our having been justified SOLELY by the work of Christ! It does not affect our positional or legal standing before God. It does give evidence to our having been born spiritually--it is not the method. A living man breathes, beause he is alive. Try pumping air into the lungs of a truly dead man and see what you get--a dead man that is having air forced into him, and nothing more! The air doesn't make him alive, he breathes the air becasue he is alive. It is evidence that he is truly alive.
Obedience
