what is Progressive dispensesionalism ?

[Alex The Hawk]

Progressivedispensesionalismteaches and is necessary to define the terms "Israel" and "the Church."
The term "Israel" basically refers to the physical descendants of Abraham through Isaac and Jacob (made up of 12 tribes), ----however the context of a passage may indicate that "Israel" is referring to a spiritual body of redeemed people. For example, in Romans 9:6, the term "Israel" is used twice, in both ways, indicating physical descendants first, and then indicating spiritually redeemed people in the second instance. God has made many promises to physical Israel which will be literally fulfilled, however, it is ultimately the spiritually redeemed Israelites who will actually experience the full delivery of those promises(Now, the "Church" is that group of people (Jew & Gentile) from all generations, who are truly redeemed and regenerated (born again) by the grace and power of God, through the shed blood of Christ, and have responded in faith (genuine trust) to God's offer of salvation. ----When talking about "Church" here, we do not mean any sort of humanly organized denomination or group of supposedly "Christian" people (which virtually always includes some people who are not regenerate).
As a historical manifestation and work of God's saving grace, the Church first began on the day of Pentecost as described in Acts chapter 2, where the Holy Spirit came (according to the promise of Jesus in Acts 1:5), and JEWISH believers were "baptized in the Spirit" at that time. That baptism in the Holy Spirit puts (incorporates) a person into the "body of Christ," as is clearly stated in 1Cor.12:13, and the "body of Christ" is the "Church" (Eph.1:22-23 ; Col.1:18,24). The Church did not functionally and organically exist in the Old Testament times, because there was never a "baptism in the Holy Spirit" in the OT, and Messiah had not yet come. Still, OT promises clearly pointed to the Church's formation and existence in the future ----although not explicitly using the actual name "church". In the OT, the "Church" (explicitly as such) was an unrevealed "mystery" or "secret" (Eph.3:3-6), which was unknown to the OT saints, ----however, since the day of Pentecost, Christ now baptizes all believers in the Holy Spirit into his body (the Church), and the "secret" has been told to all in the NT Scriptures (Col.1:26,27), so, the Church will never again be such a "mysterious" unknown secret.
----Ever since the day of Pentecost in Acts 2, the Church does exist, and it (the body of Christ) is the means of grafting Gentiles as unnatural "branches" into the natural "olive tree" of Israel (Rom. 11:11-24), so that Gentiles who believe in Christ will be included as citizens of Israel and will also be heirs of the OT promises made to those of physical Israel who are also elect (saved) (Eph.2:11-13,19 ; Gal.3:29).

What is a Dispensation?
The Greek word "oikonomia" in the New Testament, is usually translated as "dispensation," but it also carries the sense of an "arrangement," "administration," "plan" and "management." In the Bible, the word dispensation (oikonomia) is used to indicate different arrangements which God has established down through history under which he manages the affairs of mankind and administers the plan of the salvation of mankind. As God's plan to save the world moves along, he modifies the various arrangements in order to progressively attain the final goal of glorifying himself through establishing the Kingdom of God.
Thus, our definition of a "dispensation" is : A distinguishable arrangement, sovereignly established by God, in the administration of human affairs and responsibilities (especially concerning salvation), as revealed and instituted during a given time-period of history, in order to progressively establish the Kingdom of God to the glory of God.
What are the different dispensations?
Many varying listings of the dispensations have been proposed over the years, but for the purposes of both simplicity and thoroughness, the following six dispensations adequately outline salvation history:
[ul][*]1. - Adamic - until Abraham [*]2. - Patriarchial - until the giving of the Law at Mt. Sinai [*]3. - Mosaic - until the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2) [*]4. - Ecclesial (Church) - until the 2nd Coming [*]5. - Millennial [*]6. - Eternal [/ul]
Salvation Down Through the Dispensations
No matter which dispensation is being talked about, there is only one way that a person can be saved, and that is through the sacrifice of Christ by the power of God --but this sacrifice was not specifically and clearly understood in the Old Covenant. In all of history, man is only saved by grace through faith alone in God plus nothing.
Now, in the first three dispensations, as more revelation was progressively given by God through the prophets, the conscious object of faith for a saved person was obviously not Jesus the Messiah. But still, in every dispensation, the object of saving faith was the one true God ---even though the picture about God would grow progressively clearer as more was revealed in future revelation, and supremely so in the incarnation. Even though saints in the first dispensations were not aware of it, the total basis of their salvation was on the atoning death of Messiah Jesus of Nazareth.
To answer how people were saved in the OT dispensations : ---It was by grace through faith (trust) in God alone, as demonstrated through obedience to the commands He had revealed at the time. ----Those believers (elect) were not part of the body of Christ at that time (because Messiah Jesus had not yet come) ---but later (since they were elect), they would also be joined into the body of Christ (the Church) on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2) at the same time this happened to all other believers (Heb.11:39,40) through the baptism in the Holy Spirit. Thus, the initial beginning of the body of Christ (the Church) on that day included not only living believers, but also Abraham, David and all Old Covenant believers.
Physical Israel (the 12 tribes) still exists today (just as in the day of Paul, - Rom.9:3-4), ---but most of Israel is currently unregenerate. The Church doesn't displace physical descendants of Israel out of their promised literal blessings from God, -----however, ever since the Church began (in Acts 2), every single redeemed (saved) Hebrew (Israelite or Jew) has been part of the body of Christ (the Church) ...and it will remain that way. On the day of the Second Coming of Christ, "all Israel will be saved" (Rom.11:26), meaning that every single living Israelite (Hebrew) on earth will become regenerate (born again) at that time, and will become "baptized in the Holy Spirit" and, thus, become part of the body of Messiah (the Church).
There is no other way of salvation, nor will there ever be. Thus, since the day of Pentecost, we now have the "Ecclesial (Church) Dispensation," and this outline of salvation history is "progressive" in the sense that there will never be a "going back" to the possibility of anybody being saved apart from belief in the finished work of Christ, nor apart from being baptized in the Holy Spirit and made part of the body of Christ. The Jew is saved at the end by the Atonement of Christ's blood and the covenant of God And Abraham.
The promised gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit (Acts 2:33 & Ezek.36:27)) was a promise made to Israel (see Acts 2:36-39), ...and the coming of the Holy Spirit (on the birthday of the Church at Pentecost) was prophesied to Israel through Joel (2:28-32) ---as is made absolutely clear when Peter speaks of the coming and baptism in the Spirit, by saying "this IS what was spoken through the prophet Joel..." (Acts 2:16). So, the Church (with the indwelling Holy Spirit) is God's program of salvation for the people of Israel, and it is the way that they partake in the promised "New Covenant" of Jeremiah 31:31-34 -----as was explained to the Israelites (Hebrews) in the book of Hebrews 8:6-13. This promised "New Covenant" (in Messiah Jesus' blood) is made fundamentally with the "House of Israel" (Heb.8:10). And furthermore, how are these Israelites sanctified unto salvation? Read what is said to the Hebrews in chapter 10 ----verse 10 says, "we (Israelites) have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." - - -The body of Messiah (the Church) is God's only program of salvation for Israel, and because of God's grace, we who are Gentiles are blessed to be "hangers-on" ("grafted in") to this wonderful provision of salvation.
Progressive Dispensationalism
The perspective taught here is called "Progressive Dispensationalism", which is a modification of what many people have traditionally understood under "dispensationalism". Major published proponents of this perspective are C. Blaising and D. Bock (professors from Dallas Theological Seminary), who have written a book named "Progressive Dispensationalism," (BridgePoint, Wheaton, '93), and it is excellent (except they fail to follow through on the progressive dispensational perspective, to draw the logical conclusion of post-tribulationism from that perspective). Another book explaining this viewpoint, is "The Case for Progressive Dispensationalism," by Robert Saucy (Zondervan, 1993).
The older Scofieldian-type of "Classical (or "Primitive") Dispensationalism," seemed to many to be somewhat abusive on scripture, making the "Church" a "parenthesis" or some sort of an "afterthought" in the history of salvation. An overview of the relevant scriptures, however, do not portray the Church as a parenthesis, but rather, it is God's only program of salvation, which was promised in the OT, and innaugurated after the ascension of Messiah. ----And since God's salvation program has so powerfully "progressed" through Christ, from the Old Testament arrangement to the "New Covenant," it cannot ever go back to the "Old" again (just to work with Israel during the tribulation, for example). The book of Hebrews and the writings of Paul do not explain all the tremendous things accomplished by the ministry of Christ just to have Bible-teachers in the 20th century presume that many of his accomplishments (namely, involving the Church) will be "suspended" for some vague and questionable theological reasons.
No. ----The New Covenant was promised to Israel in the O.T. (Jer. 31:31-34), and we now know that that New Covenant includes the formation of the Church (starting on the day of Pentecost), which is the form in which the promises and covenantal blessings to Abraham and his descendants will be enjoyed by both Jews and Gentiles alike. ----And this includes all the national promises to physical Israel (Land, Seed & Blessing), which will be fulfilled literally here on earth when Jesus returns to set up the Davidic Messianic Throne in Jerusalem during the millennium. ---All Israel will be saved at the 2nd Coming of Christ (Rom.11:26), and that salvation means that they will all be incorporated into the body of Christ (the Church ) for all eternity. It is "in Christ" (& therefore in his body, the Church) that all the promises will be literally fulfilled to Israel.
Now that God's program of salvation has "progressed" to today's stage of blessing, which includes the placing of all true believers "in Christ" and in his body (the Church), it will never digress or give up any of the ground that has been gained. The burden of proof is on anyone who says that all the great and precious provisions afforded by the body of Christ will not benefit some future believer. Everyone who is saved from now on, after the day of Pentecost (in Acts 2) until eternity, must be part of the body of Christ, the Church (...and this must include every blood-bought saint "in Christ" in the tribulation). No going back. No afterthought. The body of Christ (the Church) is the only place of salvation God has provided for all mankind.
NOT "Replacement Theology"
Progressive Dispensationalism is not some sort of "Replacement Theology," which teaches that Israel, having failed God, has been replaced by the Church. Progressive Dispensationalism is a clear departure from the old Classical (or Primitive) Dispensationalism which draws a hard line between God's dealings with Israel and the "Church" (as they conceive it).
Instead of "Replacement Theology," Progressive Dispensationalism might more closely be described as "Fulfillment Theology", because it portrays the Church (being all regenerate, redeemed people) as a blessing which was promised as part of the New Covenant with Israel in Isaiah, Ezekiel and Jeremiah 31. The Church is not a secondary redemption plan separate from the plan for Israelites, but rather, the body of Messiah (the Church) is the fulfillment of the primary and only plan of redemption for Israel and all mankind, and the place where all the redeemed will share (both now and in the future) in God's blessings of salvation despite ethnic, gender or national differences. The Church is the "one new man" in Christ (Eph. 2:15), meaning redeemed humanity as over against unsaved mankind.
Progressive Dispensationalism portrays the body of Messiah (the "ekklesia" or "Church") as the only framework of salvation and blessing within which the unconditional and unbreakable promises to Abraham and David will be literally fulfilled to the literal people of Israel, but only regenerate Israelites will actually receive and walk in those final blessings. God has always reserved for himself a regenerate (born-again, saved) remanent out of the people of Israel (Romans 11), and that regenerate remanent is now permanently located in the body of Messiah ever since the day of Pentecost (Acts 2). The body of Messiah Yeshua is the "Church" (Eph.1:22-23), and that place of salvation is God's plan for his chosen people, Israel, and Gentiles are graciously "ingrafted" as unnatural branches, and allowed to be citizens of God's household which is fundamentally Jewish. It must be clearly said that God has in no way either rejected or replaced Israel and the Jewish people, but he is fulfilling his promises to them by putting them into the body of their own Jewish Messiah, through the baptism in the Holy Spirit (1Cor.12:13), according to the promise of that Messiah, Jesus (Acts 1:5), and in fulfillment of prophecies in Ezekiel 36:26-27 , Isaiah 59:21 and Joel 2:28-32.
Tribulation Implications
Since the body of Messiah (the Church) is the only one program and framework of salvation for all mankind (in heaven and on earth) since the day of Pentecost (in Acts 2), the Church (the body of Messiah) must necessarily be present on earth during the great tribulation. This is unavoidable, since there will clearly be regenerate saints on earth (Rev.13:7,10 ; Rev.14:12), who are persecuted by Antichrist and die "IN the Lord" Jesus (Rev.14:13). The body of Christ (the Church) is the only place of salvation God has provided for all mankind, so the tribulation saints can only be the Church on earth during the great tribulation.
Because the Church is on earth during the great tribulation, the pre-tribulation (as well as mid-trib) rapture theory loses its main argument, and we are left with a post-tribulational rapture.

[onthemend]

Romans Chapter 11, verses 25 and 26, has been more widely misunderstood than almost any other passage in the Bible. In fact, it is amazing to me that so many Bible teachers try to make Romans 11:25 and 26 say just the opposite of what it says. This is terrible because they are saying, "œThus saith the Lord,"� when the Lord has not said that.
The setting of Romans Chapter 11 is that God is explaining that most of the people in the nation of Israel were blinded, but there is a remnant, chosen by grace, who have become saved. Paul used himself as an example of those who have become saved. Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, says in verse 5:







Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.


Then he says in verse 7:







What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.


Spiritual blindness was the condition of national Israel throughout its history and is still the condition right up to the present day. They absolutely do not want the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. They do not want Him as their Messiah.
In verse 25, God begins to bring the first 24 verses of this chapter to conclusion. It is addressed to the Gentile world so that we will have an understanding of how national Israel fit into God"™s salvation plan. God says in Romans Chapter 11, verse 25:













For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel [verse 7 says it happened to most of national Israel], until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.


"œUntil the fulness of the Gentiles be come in"� means that national Israel will continue to be spiritually blind, except for a remnant chosen by grace, as long as there is one Gentile, or non-Jew, anywhere in the world, who is still to be saved.
In our generation, Israel has been a nation for over 50 years, and they are as adamant about their opposition to Christ as the Messiah as they were at any time in their history. There has been no change, and there will be no change. God says that their condition will remain the same until the last person who is of the elect of God becomes saved.
When the last Gentile has become saved, it will be the end of the world. The world will continue to its predetermined end, but before the world can end, all those who have been elected to salvation will have become saved.
Then we read in the first part of Romans 11:26:







And so all Israel shall be saved. . . .


All kinds of Bible teachers do terrible violence to this verse. They understand this verse to say, "œAnd then all Israel shall be saved."� In other words, they change the word "œso"� to "œthen."� They teach that after the Gentiles have been saved, God is going to do a work in national Israel. First of all, that does not make any sense because national Israel, that is, the blood descendants of Abraham, have been on earth for 4,000 years. What about all the Jews who lived and died unsaved during the past 4,000 years? They are part of national Israel. They are not going to be resurrected and have a second opportunity.
More than that, the word "œso"� does not mean "œthen."� "œSo"� is not a chronological word. "œSo"� means "œin this manner,"� or "œthus,"� or "œin this way."� In what way? In what manner? In the manner in which God describes in Romans Chapter 11, namely, that most of national Israel is blinded, but there is a remnant chosen by grace. In this manner, all Israel that is to be saved, shall be saved.
This is not talking, in any sense, about a future change in God"™s plan. It simply ties back into everything that has gone before, as God has reported in the previous 25 verses.
God explains why His salvation can come to the remnant of national







Israel that is chosen by grace. He says in the second part of Romans 11, verse 26 and verse 27:







. . . as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob. For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.


When Christ came and took on a human nature, to whom did He come? He came to the Jews. He was born in Bethlehem, a Jewish city. He was reared in Nazareth, a Jewish city. He was crucified in Jerusalem, a Jewish city. For three and half years, He ministered mainly around the Sea of Galilee, a Jewish area. He came to the nation of Israel, and a remnant of national Israel was chosen by grace. Later, He told the disciples that they were to go into all the world with the Gospel because salvation was to come to Gentiles as well.
These verses are easy to understand if we read them carefully. We cannot superimpose something we have been taught upon these verses. God does not have a future plan for national Israel; that idea is not found anywhere in the Bible. The Bible indicates that we are in the last days; we are headed right toward the end of time. When the last Gentile has become saved, that will be the end of the Gospel era. It will be the end of the world.

[Alex The Hawk]

It is Ovious your prejudices against Jews had overwhelmed your understanding.
Here is what God says through his prophet concerning the last days of Israel:
Chapter 37





1

The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,



2

And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.



3

And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.




4

Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.



5

Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:



6

And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.



7

So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.



8

And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.



9

Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.



10

So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.



11

Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.



12

Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.



13



And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,



14

And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.






21



And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:



22

And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.



23

Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.



24

And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.



25

And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.



26

Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.


Romans Chapter 11
Chapter 11
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying




7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from:11the dead? (see Ezequiel 37:11)

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
4243 And so all Israel shall be saved:[/size] as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies



( see Ezequiel 37 Verse 11) Because God Blinded The Jews ,He will also recompense them all even those blinded with the resurrection of the dead. It is very clear.

[onthemend]

I have not prejudged any blood Jewish people. I have only dismantled the lies of false teachers who teach that being a Jew by blood, will gain you salvation.

You are just angry because someone on this forum has stood up, and dismantled your false teaching. It is you who are prejudiced, and who count your race as profit, and hold up it in an attempt to superiorize yourself.

It is not my intent to change your mind, for your mind is seared, and as your fathers before you, you are stiff-necked, and unyeilding, and like them, you will carry your pride with you into your eternal home. My purpose here is to aid the Sheep, and lead them away from you, and your kind, and I will do so, as God permits, with His Almighty Word, until which times He rescues His Sheep from the hills, and brings them into fat pasture.

[onthemend]

We read in Romans Chapter 11, verse 25:








For I would not, brethren [this is to the Gentiles], that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel [which we read in verse 7], until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.


This verse means that spiritual blindness will remain upon national Israel, except for the remnant chosen by grace, until the last individual in all the nations of the world, who is to become saved, has become saved. The "œfullness of the Gentiles"� means that everyone who is to become saved has become saved. When they have all become saved, the task of bringing the Gospel to the world will end. The whole world will have heard the Gospel, and all the elect will have been brought into the kingdom of God, and then Christ will return.
We read in Matthew Chapter 24, verse 14:







And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


Theologians try to make Romans Chapter 11, verse 26, say what they want it to say. God says in this verse:







And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.


Theologians change the word "œso"� to "œthen,"� that is, "œthen all Israel shall be saved."� In the Greek, the original language of the New Testament, the word that is translated "œso"� cannot be translated "œthen."� The Greek word means "œin this manner,"� or "œthus,"� or "œin this fashion"� all Israel shall be saved. In what fashion?
A remnant chosen by grace will be saved and the rest are blinded. The remnant will be saved, as God explains in verse 26, because out of Zion will come the Deliverer or the Savior. We read in Romans 11, verse 27:







For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.


Who is the Deliverer? The Lord Jesus Christ is the Deliverer; He is the Savior. To whom did Jesus come? He came to the Jews. He was born

a Jew. He lived in Nazareth, and He preached in Galilee and Jerusalem, and He died there to pay for the sins of those He came to save. There is a remnant chosen by grace out of national Israel because Christ came to save those individuals from their sins.
"œAnd so all Israel shall be saved"� means that, "œall of Israel that is to be saved will be saved in this way."� There is no possibility that this passage can be saying that at some future time, God will do something more with national Israel.
What is the nation of Israel? What happens if we take "œall Israel"� very literally? If you try to make the word "œall"� include all the blood descendants of Abraham, that would include all of the Israelites who went through the wilderness after they came out of Egypt. The Bible says in Hebrews Chapter 3 that they perished because of unbelief. A couple of million people died in the wilderness without salvation, and they are part of Israel.
In the Old Testament, how many Israelites became saved? Most of the time, Israel was in rebellion against God, and yet, they are all part of national Israel. They are all blood descendants of Abraham. When Christ came, how many people of the Jewish nation claimed Christ as their Savior? A tiny remnant. Most of the people were ready to shout, "œCrucify Him!"�
If "œall"� Israel in Romans 11, verse 26, encompassed all of national Israel, that would mean that God would have to "œback up"� and save the people who came out of Egypt 3500 years ago. God would have to back up and save all the Jews who lived during the time when the Bible was being written. He would have to save all the people of the nation of Israel who lived from the time of Christ to the present time. Of course, we know that is all impossible.
When we recognize the fact that the word "œall"� is conditioned by the context in which it is used, then we have no problem. "œAll Israel"� that is to be saved, will be saved.

[Alex The Hawk]

I don't think you dismantled anything the bible says that I have posted, you only show how prejudice you are.

The Fact is God will save All Of Israel whether you want to or not, It is called the eternal covenant with Israel.
God's covenants are eternal and will be fulfilled with this Israel and with past Israel, you Just Interpret Jewish Writtings as if they were written in Alabama by Bubba Clayton.

[onthemend]

ORIGINAL: Alex The Hawk

I don't think you dismantled anything the bible says that I have posted, you only show how prejudice you are.

The Fact is God will save All Of Israel whether you want to or not, It is called the eternal covenant with Israel.
God's covenants are eternal and will be fulfilled with this Israel and with past Israel, you Just Interpret Jewish Writtings as if they were written in Alabama by Bubba Clayton.

The True Israel will no doubt be saved. However, the false Israel, that is the the children of Satan, such as the Jewish Pharisees who betrayed the Messiah Jesus, will perish in the lake of fire. Again, anyone who counts on his race, color, creed, or religion for salvation is not only a bigot, a racist, and a race baiter, and hater, but he is also a child of Satan. Bubba's in Alabama, and Arabs in Iraq will see the Kingdom of Heaven before those people will. You see Alex, God is Love, as are His Chosen people.......What are you??????

[elgallo114]

onthemend,

Could not an arguement be made that you are the one with the superiority complex? All I've seen you do is try to tear down others. Good luck! I've been reading this forum for quite a while, and I doubt you can hang with these guys when it comes to defending their faith.

Try practicing what Jesus taught. Show a little love in your words.

[Alex The Hawk]

ORIGINAL: onthemend

The True Israel will no doubt be saved. However, the false Israel, that is the the children of Satan, such as the Jewish Pharisees who betrayed the Messiah Jesus, will perish in the lake of fire. Again, anyone who counts on his race, color, creed, or religion for salvation is not only a bigot, a racist, and a race baiter, and hater, but he is also a child of Satan. Bubba's in Alabama, and Arabs in Iraq will see the Kingdom of Heaven before those people will. You see Alex, God is Love, as are His Chosen people.......What are you??????

Those Pharasees were saved before there was ever a church and I'll prove it to you.

Luk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots. [/align]So everyone who had something to do with his death ,The lord interceeded for them.
Do you think God did not hear His Son's intecession for all the ones that killed Him ?.

Yes The Iraquis might see salvation before the Jews do, that was God's plan, that Gentiles such as you and Iraquis be saved, before the whole House Of Israel would.
He Blinded all of israel for people like you and the Iraquis, may The Lord have mercy on their soul and yours.

But according to the word all enemies of Israel will be dessumated.
Shalom

[onthemend]

Those Pharasees were saved before there was ever a church and I'll prove it to you.

You can no more prove the validity of your doctrines, than the pharisees could

Luk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

This Scripture speaks of Christs Love for His Church, which was represented in that time by Israel. It does not change the Jewish Pharisees who were called "Children of Satan" by Jesus, into Children of God, no matter how much you would like it to.



[/align]

So everyone who had something to do with his death ,The lord interceeded for them.

Jesus Christ was not put to death by anyone. Hesimply choose to die as a replacement for His Children. While He died of His own Good Will, and Purpose, the Children of the Stranger, the Jewish Pharisees, and the other unsaved still conspired against Him, as Children of Satan do. As we speak today, many physical Jews still mock Jesus Christ, and callHim a false Saviour, and they too are Children of Satan, as is anyone who denies Jesus Christ as Lord.

Do you think God did not hear His Son's intecession for all the ones that killed Him ?.

Jesus Christ is God, and Jesus Christ interceeded for His Church before the Earth was ever formed.

Yes The Iraquis might see salvation before the Jews do, that was God's plan,

The only ones who are saved are the ones who know Jesus as Lord.

that Gentiles such as you and Iraquis be saved, before the whole House Of Israel would.

The only Israel that will be saved is the True, and Holy Church. The whole of them will be saved. Jews who denounce Jesus as Lord are Children of Satan. One cannot serve two masters. To teach that simply being physically Jewish earns one salvation, even though they hate Jesus is a cursed lie, born od Satan, who is the father of lies. Only Satan would try and make such a claim seem real.

He Blinded all of israel for people like you and the Iraquis, may The Lord have mercy on their soul and yours.

Not all Israel was blinded. My Brothers Paul, and Peter were given sight, as was the Roman Centurion. Granted, many stiff neck Jews, and Pharisees were blinded by Satan, not God...2Cor 4:3-4

But according to the word all enemies of Israel will be dessumated.

Very true, Israel, the Holy Church will triumph over her enemies with the Power of Jesus Christ, and those enemies include Godless men of all races, colors, and creeds, including the Godless Jews who reject Christ.