Baptism and the Bible

[LBR]

As I said I'd doin the "silly question" thread, here is a list of scriptures that have to be ignored and/or brushed aside to believe that baptism is not essential to salvation, followed by a list of questions that were not given direct or scriptural answers. Any emphasis is mine. Some questions were originally addressed to one person, but now I ask anyone to please give a scripturalanswer. Opinions won't get anyone to heaven. If I copy the same question or verse more than once,my apologies in advance.

Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Romans 6:3, Galatians 3:27, I Peter 3:21

Acts 2:38 says repent and be baptized for the remission of sins--it doesn't say a thing about hearing, believing, or confessing.

I Peter 3:21 says that baptism saves us--no mention of anything else.

Mark 16:16 says belief and baptism saves us--again, leaving out the rest.

I Corinthians 12:13 "For by one spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."

Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall recieve the gift of the Holy Ghost."

Acts 10:48 "And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days."

Acts 22:16 "And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

Romans 6:3-5 "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For is we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:"

Galatians 3:27 "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."

I Peter 3:21 "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"

John 3:16 and John 8:24where there is nothing but belief mentioned? Does belief alone save us?

Luke 13:3, Acts 3:19, and Acts 17:30 where only repentance is mentioned? Does repentance alone save us?

Matthew 10:32 and Romans 10:9,10 where confession will result in salvation? Does confession alone save us?

Motor, I ask this sincerely, with no sarcasm intended--what do you do with all those other verses? How do you go about deciding which verse or command is more important than another?

I ask again, what is difference in the participation involved with hearing, believeing, repenting, confessing with the mouth; and being baptized. All require our participation, all are given as requirements, so how are they labeled differently? How do you determine whether a command is optional or not? What makes one verse more meaningful than another?

I agree Sylvan--but my question is how obeying one command is somehow different than obeying another?

If you have to do something, how is one thing that's commanded different from another?

Just like baptism is a requirement. If it's not, how do you explain all the verses pertaining to baptism?

The Bible doesn't say they were saved, then baptized. It's simply not there, and you have to read something into the Bible that does not exist, while ignoring plain, straightforward scripture. Shouldn't that tell us something?

Again, if baptism is a "work", or if it's something you will do AFTER you are saved, or if it is optional (not required for salvation), where is the scripture stating such? And how do you explain all the scriptures that state otherwise?

First, we see first thing in Acts 10 that Cornelius was a believer. Verse 2 "A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway." He obviously believed in God very strongly, but was not yet saved. How could that be, if belief is the only requirement?

Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

Believe AND be baptized, then be saved. Not believe, be saved, then be baptized.

I Corinthians 12:13 "For by one spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."

How do we enter the body (church)? Can you find any other way in the Bible?


Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall recieve the gift of the Holy Ghost."



[blockquote]quote:

Paul teaches us in Romans 8:9 that anyone who has the Holy Spirit is a Christian. If one does not have the Spirit, no matter what else he does or believes, he is not a Christian.
[/blockquote]


When did Peter say we recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit?

Acts 10:48 "And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days."

How many commands are optional?

Acts 22:16 "And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

What isthe purpose of baptism here?

Romans 6:3-5 "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For is we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:"

How do you get INTO Christ? How are we able to walk in newness of life? How shall we also be like Christ in the likeness of his ressurection? Can you find any other way in the Bible other than through baptism?

Galatians 3:27 "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."

Again, how do we get INTO Christ? Again, show me ANY other way noted in the Bible.

I Peter 3:21 "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"

What saves us?

You have to ignore these verses, and more, to believe that baptism is optional andhas no part in our salvation--that is very much as plain as the nose on your face.



[blockquote]quote:

There are countless verses that tell you how to be saved and none even mention baptism.[/blockquote]


I agree--which one is correct?

John 3:16 and John 8:24where there is nothing but belief mentioned? Does belief alone save us?

Luke 13:3, Acts 3:19, and Acts 17:30 where only repentance is mentioned? Does repentance alone save us?

Matthew 10:32 and Romans 10:9,10 where confession will result in salvation? Does confession alone save us?

Will you argue that believing, confessing, and repenting are not requirements? I just showed you several verses that don't mention all three together, but are telling us how to be saved. How do you decide which to obey and which to ignore? Can you pick just one verse?

What verse do you base your belief that you SHOULD be baptized on? I've never see it stated even once in the Bible where baptism is a recommendation--it's always a command. Again I ask, how do you determine when a command is optional?

Can you challenge each and every one of my questions with scripture? Can you accept the Bible and the New Testament message of salvation through Jesus Christ, and accept every verse? If you have to brush aside certain verses to continue in your currentbeliefs, what should that tell you?

I didn't leave off the last part of Mark 16:16. It's very simple--if you don't believe, it won't matter if you are dunked 1,000 times--it won't do you any good. The emphasis is belief has to come first. If you don't believe, then there is no point in being baptized. If I told you "Wayne, go to the store and pick up a gallon of milk, and when you return I'll give you $100. If you don't go to the store, I won't give you $100." Now, do I have to say "If you don't go to the store, and you don't pick up a gallon of milk, I won't give you $100"???

Does hearing the word of God not require any physical participation on your part? Does believing not depend on hearing? Does repenting not depend on believing? And what is the difference in confessing with the mouth--a physical act that is commanded--and baptism? How is one a work and the other is not?

Was Noah and his family saved when he decided to obey God and build the arc, or when he actually did it? Was Abraham justified when he decided to sacrifice Issac, or when he actually had his only son on the altar? Was Naaman cleansed of his leprosy when he decided to go dip, or when he had completed the task? Did the walls of Jericho fall when the people believed, or was it after they obeyed? Again, I ask what the difference is in the physical act of being baptised and the physical act of confessing Christ with the mouth. Would you contend that confessing is not required either? Is hearing the Word of God essential?

And I posted numerous verses that state that baptism is essential for salvation, which means that it is not a work either--at least not a work of the flesh, but an act of obedience. How do you go about discounting all of those verses?

There are verses that state that one will be saved by believing, and nothing else is mentioned. There are verses that only mention repentance, and others that only mention confession. Which ones are correct, and how do you choose which to believe and which to discount or change? You say "only a few verses mention a link to baptism and salvation". How many times does the Bible have to tell us something for it to be true?

Dave, will you base your salvation on carefully choses verses, or the whole Word?

As I said before (and listed them), there are verses that mention belief only, verses that mention confession only, etc. Can you read those few verses and learn what it takes to be saved?

Does God need us to "help" by hearing, believing, repenting, and confessing? Couldn't He save us without our help there? Did God need Noah's help in order to save him and his family? Did God need help bringing down the walls of Jericho? Did God need help curing Naaman?

Would you say then that someone can still go to heaven without hearing, believing, repenting, and confessing? Are these also commands, but not requirements?

These are all pulled from the "silly question" thread. My intention was to keep everything in context. Looking forward to some answers.

Chad

[Snooky]

Luke 24:45 Then opened he their understanding that they might understand the scriptures, V46: And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: V47:And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. V48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

Acts 10:33 Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast done well that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.

Acts 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

[Tazman]

I have pretty much stayed out of this, Chad I concur with you that according to Christ himself, baptism (if possible) is required, Christ himself was baptised.

To expand on the (if possible), I am sure that on judgement day, those that accepted Christ as their Saviour, repented for their sins and followed his teachings and commands as closely as they could, but for some reason beyond thier control were unable to be baptised would not be damned. Basically if they would be baptised if at all possible, they would be judged for what is in thier heart.

Those who say they have accepted Christ as their Saviour, repented for their sins and followed his teachings and commands as closely as they could, but failed to be baptised through their own choice IMHO will be judged accordingly.

[Chuck7]

Baptism is a must.
John3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Also..."Whosoever believeth. That word believeth goes much deeper than just a confession or good intentions.
Look at Matthew 13. at the different soil types.

1. One recieves but immediately Satan steals the Word out of his heart.
2. Heart 2 recieves the Word BUT has no root
Matt.13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

3.Heart 3 seems to have it until the cares of the world choke it out.

13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

4. The good soil is the one that hears AND BRINGS FORTH FRUIT

Matt13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
Mt.7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Mt.7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

So yes believeth is much more than just recieving the message. It enables enduring, working, and obeying. Surely..faith without works is DEAD.
C7

PS Some may say but it's by grace ye are saved and that not of yourself. Yes ..the seed of salvation as in Matthew 13 is available to all.It is free. The work part is cultivating the soil of your heart and keeping th eweeds out.That is your part. You will need to obey God or else the cares of this world will choke out the word of Salvation right out of your heart.

[Leafrivermac]

John3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

I agree that baptism is essential, but the above verse mentioned . . .how do we know that "born of water" is speaking of baptism? It seems to me that "born of water" could mean "born of woman".

[LBR]

Mac, I've heard that argument many times, and here's my thoughts on it.

First, Christ did not say "born of a woman"--I believe He said what He meant, and meant what He said.

Second, it makes no sense. Why would Christ say you must be born before you can be saved? Was there someone teaching that people that did not exist and never would be born on this earth would be saved? Was there someone teaching the baby in the womb had to go through a procedure to be saved? We already know that little children, babies, and the unborn have a home in heaven. Again, using logic, it makes no sense.

Finally, we have many more scriptures that tell us water baptism is a requirement, and essential. Even if Christ wasn't referring to water baptism (and I believe He was), we still know from other verses that it is a requirement.

Chad

[Tazman]

John
3:1
There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

3:2
The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

3:4
Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

This pretty much blows away the "Born of a woman"

[LBR]

I just realized something--I couldn't say how many times I've read that verse, but never picked up onfour little words that should end any arguments about it. "I say unto thee" Christ was telling Nicodemus what he had to do--the old man Nicodemus--not just making a general statement. Of course it is impossible to re-enter the mother's womb, and Christ clarified what he meant. We are told in other verses that we are buried with Christ in baptism, and arise in newness of life--we are born again in scriptural baptism, just as Christ told Nicodemus! Christ further clarifies that just getting dunked won't do it--we much also be born of the Spirit--we can't just go through the motions and have it do any good--our heart must be in it also.

Thanks Taz!

Chad

[Snooky]

Those who say they have accepted Christ as their Saviour, repented for their sins and followed his teachings and commands as closely as they could, but failed to be baptised through their own choice IMHO will be judged accordingly.

Taz; I agree. God will hold one accountable for all the light that God has given him, but will not send one to hell for something that he has never had the chance to fulfill, or become obedient to.
The question then becomes, when does accountability come into play? Wouldn't the answer be in the scripture, "to him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin"? When one knows enough to make an arguement, for, or against the scripture, lodgic would tell us that this man knows enough to be held accountable. His destiny then is in his own choosing and God will not "send" him to heaven or hell, he will allow him the destiny of his own choosing. God does not force one to enter heaven against his will, neither does he cast one into hell, unless a choice has been made to be disobedient to Gods will for him. Paul used the phrase, "if there be first a willing mind". Is 1:19 If ye be willing and obedient. Heb 13:18 In all things, willing to live honestly. IMO these scriptures indicate that some may be less that "willing" and "honest" with God, which will effect the obedience, or lack thereof, to the scriptures.

[strut]

Chad, I have to commend you on your ability to teach the truth and to do it with out offending anyone. God bless you sir in your work for the Lord.