Zechariah and the dispensationalist (millenialist)

[Goose 11]

Since the time I started posting, I have asserted that Jesus would never step foot on the earth again. I have sited such passages as: 1 Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord." So with that truth in hand I still assert that Jesus will NEVER step foot on this earth again. He has no reason to, because He did not fail the first time, He succededand "lead captivity captive"! Ephesians 4:7-8 "But grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ"™s gift. Therefore it says, "œWhen he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men."� ESV. The only verse that alluds to Jesus steping on the earth, is from Zachariah 14:4.I intend to deal with the validity of this verse in reference to the second coming of Christ. Observe the following obvious allusions to the first coming of Christ and His redemptive work that He achieved in the first century:
3:8; 6:12--the Branch (an obvious reference to Jesus--Jeremiah 23:5; 33:15)
[/align]9:9--King riding on a donkey (the triumphal entry of Jesus into the city--Matthew 21:4; John 12:15)
[/align]9:10--the King who reigns from sea to sea
[/align]11:12-13--the betrayal price of Jesus and the potter's field (Matthew 26:15; 27:9ff.)
[/align]12:10--looking on Him whom they have pierced (Christ on the cross--John 19:37; Revelation 1:7)
[/align]13:1--the fountain for cleansing (obvious reference to Jesus' atonement on the cross)
[/align]13:2--termination of Jewish idolatry, cessation ofmiraculous gifts (prophecy) and demon possession--all in the first century
[/align]13:7--striking the Shepherd (Matthew 26:31; Mark 14:27)
[/align]14:9--one king over the whole Earth (King of kings!--1 Timothy 6:15)
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[/align]Observe that these allusions are sprinkled right in the midst of the verses that premillennialists insist refer to a time yet future to our day. They want us to believe that the other verses applyto a time period 2000 years afterthe fulfillment of the Messianic portions. But Jesus is King over all the Earth NOW, He reigns now on His throne at the right hand of God over His eternal kingdom that is composed of people from all over the world. He has no reason to return to the Earth and reign over a physical kingdom in the future!
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[/align]My contention is that the entire section is a spiritual description of the advent of Christ and the Christian system. This interpretation is in keeping with biblical usage elsewhere. Jerusalem is being used as a spiritual figure for the true city of God--the church of Christ--which perpetuallyis attacked by the world. Jesus standing on the Mt. of Olives is a way to refer to Jesus/God standing with the saints when assaults came against the church in the first century (e.g., Jewish persecution [Acts 8:1ff.] was terminated in A.D. 70; Roman persecution received a significant setback in the 90s [Revelation]). The "living water" (14:8) is surely that which Jesus and the Holy Spirit provide in N.T. Christianity (John 7:37ff.). "His name the only name" is surely referring to Jesus in His first century role in the Kingdom (Acts 4:12; 3 John 7). Jesus claimed such oneness with the Father (John 10:30). The peace, safety, and security attributed to Jerusalem is surely an aptdescription of the peace enjoyed by Christians in the kingdom (John 14:27; 16:33; Philippians 4:7). The "remnant of the nations (heathen)" (14:16) is an unmistakable allusion to the universality of the kingdom of Christ. The N.T. is filled with stress on the incorporation of the Gentile into the church in addition to the Jew--both worshipping the same Lord in the same way. The last few verses of chapter 14 are accentuating the cleansing and holiness associated with being a Christian in contrast to the ritualism of Judaism--achieved by Christ in our behalf (Matthew 26:28; Ephesians 5:26-27).
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[/align]Observethen that by literalizing the passages, the dispensationalist is faced with the absurd idea that Old Testament Mosaic institutions willbe observed in the millennium--complete with annual pilgrimage to Jerusalem for the Feast of Tabernacles (14:16), utensils in the Temple (14:20), and animal sacrifice (14:21)! Anyone who has studied Romans, Galatians, and Hebrews knows just how firmly the N.T. stresses that all such activities are completely ineffective and a return to that which is inferior. In other words, the dispensationalist has an extremely limited/shallow understanding of the N.T. and the relationship between Judaism and the Christian system.And, interesting enough, though modern dayIsrael has automobiles and modern transportation systems, at the time of theRapture and Millennium, they will apparently have returned to the use of horses, mules, camels, and donkeys (14:15)!
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[/align]Comments, questions?
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[/align]Hope you all enjoyed, and I hope this clears up my understanding.
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[/align]Respectfully,
[/align]Trae
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[Chuck7]

Since the time I started posting, I have asserted that Jesus would never step foot on the earth again. I have sited such passages as: 1 Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord."AMEN..and this will happen after the 3 1/2 years.Then sometime after that those he took will be coming back with him on horses .It's in Rev.So with that truth in hand I still assert that Jesus will NEVER step foot on this earth again.OH Yeah...He comes back to smite the earth with a rod and to set up th e1000year reign. He has no reason to, because He did not fail the first time, He succededand "lead captivity captive"! He ;s coming back to wheel and deal with the armies gathered around Israel.Ephesians 4:7-8 "But grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ"™s gift. Therefore it says, "œWhen he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men."� that 's us now brotherESV. The only verse that alluds to Jesus steping on the earth, is from Zachariah 14:4.I intend to deal with the validity of this verse in reference to the second coming of Christ. Observe the following obvious allusions to the first coming of Christ and His redemptive work that He achieved in the first century: Goose...don't allude BELIEVE
3:8; 6:12--the Branch (an obvious reference to Jesus--Jeremiah 23:5; 33:15)

[/align]9:9--King riding on a donkey (the triumphal entry of Jesus into the city--Matthew 21:4; John 12:15)

[/align]9:10--the King who reigns from sea to sea

[/align]11:12-13--the betrayal price of Jesus and the potter's field (Matthew 26:15; 27:9ff.)

[/align]12:10--looking on Him whom they have pierced (Christ on the cross--John 19:37; Revelation 1:7)

[/align]13:1--the fountain for cleansing (obvious reference to Jesus' atonement on the cross)

[/align]13:2--termination of Jewish idolatry, cessation ofmiraculous gifts (prophecy) and demon possession--all in the first century

[/align]13:7--striking the Shepherd (Matthew 26:31; Mark 14:27)

[/align]14:9--one king over the whole Earth (King of kings!--1 Timothy 6:15)

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[/align]Observe that these allusions are sprinkled right in the midst of the verses that premillennialists insist refer to a time yet future to our day. They..folks like Chuck and Alex and millions more LOLwant us to believe that the other verses applyto a time period 2000 years afterthe fulfillment of the Messianic portions. But Jesus is King over all the Earth NOW, He reigns now on His throne at the right hand of God over His eternal kingdom that is composed of people from all over the world. He has no reason to return to the Earth and reign over a physical kingdom in the future! He will be cause He said He would.

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[/align]My contention is that the entire section is a spiritual description of the advent of Christ and the Christian system. This interpretation is in keeping with biblical usage elsewhere. Jerusalem is being used as a spiritual figure Spiritual figure ..He sure went to some pretty exact measurements fo rsomething t be spiritual Like a city 1500 mile square .12 gates of precious stones. Streets as gold.for the true city of God--the church of Christ--which perpetuallyis attacked by the world. Jesus standing on the Mt. of Olives is a way to refer to Jesus/God standing with the saints when assaults came against the church in the first century (e.g., Jewish persecution [Acts 8:1ff.] was terminated in A.D. 70;It still goes on.What about Hitler.What about the Fox book of marytrs.Roman persecution received a significant setback in the 90s [Revelation]). The "living water" (14:8) is surely that which Jesus and the Holy Spirit provide in N.T. Christianity (John 7:37ff.). "His name the only name" is surely referring to Jesus in His first century role in the Kingdom (Acts 4:12; 3 John 7). Jesus claimed such oneness with the Father (John 10:30). The peace, safety, and security attributed to Jerusalem is surely an aptdescription of the peace enjoyed by Christians in the kingdom (John 14:27; 16:33; Philippians 4:7). The "remnant of the nations (heathen)" (14:16) is an unmistakable allusion to the universality of the kingdom of Christ. The N.T. is filled with stress on the incorporation of the Gentile into the church in addition to the Jew--both worshipping the same Lord in the same way. The last few verses of chapter 14 are accentuating the cleansing and holiness associated with being a Christian in contrast to the ritualism of Judaism--achieved by Christ in our behalf (Matthew 26:28; Ephesians 5:26-27).

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[/align]Observethen that by literalizing the passages, the dispensationalist is faced with the absurd idea that Old Testament Mosaic institutions willbe observed in the millennium--complete with annual pilgrimage to Jerusalem for the Feast of Tabernacles Trae..we are only believeing what God's Word says. Sorry if that offends you.(14:16), utensils in the Temple (14:20), and animal sacrifice (14:21)! Anyone who has studied Romans, Galatians, and Hebrews knows just how firmly the N.T. stresses that all such activities are completely ineffective and a return to that which is inferior.I agree ..and I don't understand it all but Jesus is coming back and the whole world will witness it and Every knee will bow and confess that he is Lord ..even youIn other words, the dispensationalist has an extremely limited/shallow understanding of the N.T. and the relationship between Judaism and the Christian system.Judge not lest ye be judged.And, interesting enough, though modern dayIsrael has automobiles and modern transportation systems, at the time of theRapture and Millennium, they will apparently have returned to the use of horses, mules, camels, and donkeys (14:15)!

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[/align]Comments, questions?
I made them

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[/align]Hope you all enjoyed, and I hope this clears up my understanding.

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[/align]Respectfully,

[/align]Trae

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[Goose 11]

the dispensationalist is faced with the absurd idea that Old Testament Mosaic institutions willbe observed in the millennium

In other words, the dispensationalist has an extremely limited/shallow understanding of the N.T. and the relationship between Judaism and the Christian system

I'm sorry for the way I worded that, I could have been more respectful. Please forgive me. I did get excited though, and I should be respectful of your fsith. I do respect you all very much. And I thank you for reasoning with me from the scriptures. I'm sure there are some that have benefitted from our discourse.

Your Friend, and fellow believer,
Trae

[Chuck7]

I'm sorry for the way I worded that, I could have been more respectful.
Trae

No harm done Trae. You obviously believe you are correct. There is no harm in that. I must admit I don't understand the concept of the sacrifices. I like you believe Christ Jesus died once and for all for the sins of all men. I do know as we speak Jews are looking for the place to build the next temple. I also know that nowhere in history has one fulfilled the role of the Anti Christ spoken in Rev.13. I also know all the scriptures in Ezekial have not been fulfilled.I do not believe the mosque as ALex does {To be the abomination of Daniel} there will be The Anti Christ in the Holy place deciving and wreckin ghavoc from Israel. WHo is it???I have no idea. But how shall a 2006 Christian prepare himself for the future.By not getting attached to this old world and value Jesus above all so that you wouldn't be tempted to save your life in the face of trials .
C7

[Alex The Hawk]

9

And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.



10

And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;



11

Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
come 1st Cor 11:26, Rev 1:7

Rev 1:7 "Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen."
Matt 24:30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory."

I believe the word, not what man thinks he knows.

Shalom

[Chuck7]

Pretty black and white there Alex. And in the Old Testament I believe it's prophesied they will weep for 3 months when they realized they had crucified Christ Jesus their messiah.
C7